Debate: Is Summorum Pontificum a failure?

I am not a regular old-Mass-goer. But, I think, yes – Summorum Pontificum has been a success, if you think it's a good thing that many more Catholic faithful than before are able to hear Mass as it used to be celebrated by all Catholics, everywhere, for hundreds of years. There was clearly a demand for the old form of the Mass. That is why you find it celebrated regularly in many London churches especially.

Second point relates to the basic unfairness of the Mass being prohibited. There was nothing wrong with it or heretical. It is generally considered beautiful and holy. So how was it just to say to priests “you are not allowed to celebrate this Mass” and to people “you are not allowed to hear it”? That was unjust, surely.

It is way to early to tell but I can see that the powers at be do not want it to return. For example, in New York City and the areas around the city the only place to go to mass is in a cemetery chapel that only holds 30 people. The other place is in the middle of downtown Brooklyn where you can not find a parking spot at all. Another is in a very VERY bad area where people are intimidated to go. I was talking to my mother about this a few weeks ago and she said that the same thing happened in the early 70's. She had told me that churches only held masses on Sunday mornings at 5 or 6am and then churches said since no one is coming they should just stop having them.

it is a long process and considering the various roadblocks that the bishops put in place to prevent the saying of the EF I would say it is well on its way to being a success. Here in the States more and more parishes are saying the EF. For far too long the bishops prevented the saying of the EF and when the SP was published they misinterpreted it publishing all sorts of rules

Perhaps at the local level the majority of people are still waiting to see a Church moulded by the transparency and compassion of the Gospel (central to Vatican II) and haven't the time to waste on secondary issues such as which side of the altar one stands of which version of the Latin text is best to use at Mass.

Somehow I don't think the Pope brought it back to make it mainstream. Seems to me what he did was make it more accessible and less stigmatized for those who wanted it. To judge it as a success or failure seems stupid.

Three years on – from 2005? Has the Extraordinary Form diminished our ability to count?

I believe that it is too early to tell…I do not believe that Summorum Pontificum is a failure, but ,perhaps, sufficient directives encouraging initiation of the Holy Mass in the extraordinary form have not been emphasized. G. Boos

Mary……..what does mainstream mean…???? All around diocese are falling apart, not enough young priests coming through. Parishes closing, buildings falling into disrepair. There is no stream left to “be main” in….. we are in a dried up dead zone. We all know what brought the drought on, don't we…???

We are of to Lourdes in two weeks, the usual suspects will be there running the show, with their guitars and ghastly so called masses liturgical dancing and the like. Even though they can see the decay all around there is not the will to do anything about it. Because they know full well what the remedy is….The Real Mass……but these “Spiritual Giants” turned their face against the Traditional Mass years ago……they'd rather see the church sink, than come down from the clouds.

The Church hasn't been “moulded by the transparency and compassion of the Gospel” for the last 2,000 years? Buffoon.

To say it was 'a failure', is to assume its purpose was to, 'bring the pre-Vatican II Mass back into the mainstream, and transform the liturgical culture of the Church', isn't it?

Summorum Pontifcum hasn't failed but the priests, bishops and laity that are responsible for the current malaise need a wake-up call.

1. The endless quest to make worship “relevant” to the youth is laughable. It was pathetic in the 70s and it's even worse now. Examine parish demographics and ask why a lost generation aged- 30-60 has been alenated.

2. There are intransigent priests who refuse to place the crucufix on their forward-facing altars. Why can't they adjust? What liturgical objections can they have to the crucifix?

3. There's a “noisy minority” in most parishes that runs things their way – 30 years of this and the Catholic Faith in most towns and cities flounders as a result.

I for one quite like the Latin Novus Ordo rather than the 1962 Traditional Rite – I wouldn't force either on an unwilling congretation; however Bishops, Priests and the Noisy Minority need to adjust quickly or else we'll face a similar traditional v. modernist split. My problem is that the modernists treat us all as if we're “a bunch of nutters.”

Who exactly thinks that “Lord of the Dance,” “Our God Reigns” and “Yahweh” are better forms of worship than what they replaced?

Only Rome can sort this out – the Roman Catholic establishment within these shores treats tradition as if it had been invented by the Devli – and we all knoiw that they don't believe that Satan exists anyway.

It'll take longer than three years to reverse the mistakes of the last thirty.

As Herman Goering was wont to say…”Whenever I hear the word culture, I reach for my pistol”…..

You are not seriously using the word “Culture” for the antics that go on in the average parish in this country are you..??

Shurely shome mishtake..??? the Catholic Culture withered and died in every diocese in this country years ago. Oh sure the corpse still twitches every now and again, and Fr Tim…..just below…..and Fr Ray Blake, of Brighton, Fr Dunn in Glasgow, Fr Mark Morris, Glasgow…..and others……are trying to do their bit……..but the overall picture is one of decay….Parishes closing…..vocations just about non existent……and morons dancing in the sanctuaries…..in stead of giving us the Real Mass.

Summorum Pontificum was promulgated in 2007, not 2005. Which is to say – exactly three years ago today.

What about a Mass in Aramaic?

I As a priest, it pains me to say this, but: I think SP it is a failure. Here is why….many young priests I know don't want to take the time to learn it. And the few that would like to learn and say it, have been told (unofficial of course) by the powers that be, if you want to get your own parish someday, You better not rock the boat. There were two Latin Masses started in my diocese right after SP. Sadly, the numbers fell off, and the new priests, who were made pastors of the parishes, told me that they will not be keeping the Latin Mass on the parishes Mass schedule when the retiring priests who are now saying these masses retire and move away. Lastly, the people have voted and they prefer the Novus Ordo (McEucharist) to the Latin Mass with its complex symbolism (they have to think too much) and transcendent theology. Sad but true.

Type your comment here.Fr.Thomas Regan OSB:
Thank God for Pope Benedict and Summorum Pontificum ! At Abergavenny we have a weekly Traditional Rite Mass, a quarterly Missa Cantata, an occasional Solemn High Mass (when deacon & subdeacon are available!) and a LowMass on Easter Day and Christmas morn: parishioners welcome this opportunity to pray the Mass with devotion. Others travel great distances to avail themselves of the opportunity here. Some poor priests are against the Old Mass from ignorance; indeed some have trouble saying the New Rite in English ! Some feel there is ' no need'…. but they have not catechized their people nor presented trhe faithful with an opportunity to learn about our rich liturgical heritage. The Latin Mass Society's training weeks for clergy have proved to be life-changing for many priests. I urge younger clergy to take advantage of them, or to invite those Priests who do celebrate the 'Mass of the Ages' to help them. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ upon earth, he has given us Summorum Pontificum. Peter has spoken. Celebrating the Old Mass is clearly 'according to the mind of the Church'—-and Vocations abound for the Orders which celebrate it. Deo gratias!

It has had a very slow start. Thanks mostly to local Bishops who are afraid of the Old Mass. I struggle to understand why. But slowly things are changing, at the behest of laity mostly.
Looks like a case of “one word from The Holy Father and the Bishops do what they like”!
Ours here (Paisley) has consistantly refused to allow the ER, and as we would have to “import” a Priest. We do need his permission.

My family and I base our whole spiritual life around the Usus Antiquior. Our daughter has just made her First Holy Communion in Cambridge according to this rite and our son will be confirmed in the traditional rite in November. So, for us the Motu Proprio Summorum Pointificum has been a tremendous success. However, it must be said that the largest obstacle remains the opposition to it by most priests and bishops who put their own views above those of the Holy Father. I look forward to the time when the Tridentine Mass will be available in ALL parishes, not only in this country but throughout the world.

In Christ, Kevin Marshall.

As a writer who has only recently started attending Tridentine Mass, but has for 40 years attended just the 'normal mass' I see that there is a big problem with the Novus Ordo, which, like many seemingly abrupt or discontinuous changes, hastily carried out, in order to be properly understood or even to be effective, assumes a complete prior knowledge of what went before on behalf of the priest and people. Its so obvious to me that it hurts.

The 'action' of all masses should be Devoted Worship, spiritual, mental and physical. This intense and true participation is ultimately expressed in, for want of a better word, 'directionailty' – even a very small child without developed language skills intimately understands this and can instantly participate too. The 'directionality' (i.e. priest and people facing and worshipping God, utterly expressing and reinforcing their Faith in doing so – literally witnessing with everything that they've got, to God's Presence) is totally and utterly essential to 'Worship God', since without it, God's presence in a specific location becomes watered down, and it takes a great and hugely difficult effort of imagination to make up for this 'loss'. If God is 'wherever you want Him to be', and there is no privileged locus for his True Presence then the Devil has won. Hence many New Masses are spiritually empty, or worse, are filled with ghastly pale reflections of secular culture.

Priests and people (and we are all priests in a true sense which is why each and every 'priest' must be given the fullest foundation in the Faith) when faced with having to make 'extra' creative and imaginative leaps, leaving aside having to constantly 'ignore' weak, insensitive or even erroneous practises at Novus Ordo masses will eventually become, apart from a few exceptional moments, true 'empty vessels', not necessarily praying or worshipping, or even participating in any meaningful sense other than ticking off a lot of ritualistic boxes where the key 'presence' is in fact the priest, and the chief reason for participating in the call and response type dialogue is that it is with him and not with God. Too much hard and unsupported work is assumed by the Novus Ordo to 'make it work' as an act of worship. The further we get from the time that it was changed the worse the situation will become. If left without the Pope's intervention the mass could be reduced to a prayerless and worshipless meeting, a sort of uninspiring club.

By the way, this is not a sin of what has been added but what has been omitted, and is very simply remedied by some extra rubrics explaining what really must be attempted by priest and people in order for the presence of God and the worship of God to be obscured through a very dark glass indeed. The Novus Ordo, when carried out by prayerful priests who understand intimately this 'directionality', and do all they can to develop it and reinforce it for their congregations, are truly worthy leaders of their Faith. The Bishops and all of us really who have presided over this scandal (true stumbling block) of emptying the mass of its devoted humble worship, which is not a 'meeting' but a matter of life or death every time it is said, are now, after 40 years in the desert having to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit, happily and wonderfully broadcast through the Holy Fathers Motu Proprio, which skillfully steers the flock in a new direction.

Novus Ordo, carried out by priests who understand and who also regularly perform the Old Rite, can be prayerful, worshipful, and holy, but without it, and without the 'directionality' of worshipful prayer, it can be used by the Devil to make us stumble on our own lack of faith, our own emptiness. The empty gestures, the liturgical atrocities, the banalities, the diabolical music, the misunderstanding of participation, are only the weak cultural inserts that have accumulated because of the lack of understanding of what it means to be in the Presence of God, an emptiness which has been fostered by our lack of belief that God's Presence has a locus, a position in the church, in the mass, in the tabernacle, from which all unworthy controllable thoughts, music, behaviour should be banished as a form of denial of this Presence. The direction we face, the prayerful intent that comes from this simple understanding of where to 'send' your worship (a totally natural part of the Old Mass regardless of the 'qualities' of the priest as a charismatic man or not – its should have nothing to do with his character,he's just leading and uniting the prayers that are already there, facing the same direction – 'at the helm' as it were).

The Old Mass contains the hidden rubrics for the New Mass. Those rubrics should be hidden no more, and no New Mass missel should be published without both forms – curiousity in the young will be aroused, and their curiousity will be rewarded.

40 years in the desert – we have gone so far past simple thirst that its a miracle we're alive at all. don't our leaders know this?

No, definitely not a failure. But it may take a long, long time to make any widespread impact; that may be disappointing, but any other expectations were surely unrealistic.

It is possible this point has been made elsewhere but surely after three years the Holy father might give a pointed lead/sign by offering the Gregorian Rite aka EF in public, at some high profile event and show the doubters, sceptics and hostiles that he means business. He believes in the concept of liturgical pluralism, within defined limits, so now let us experience the reality. As Supreme Pontiff he has the authority in matters liturgical so let the stiff necks feel the weight of it.

This comment requires a response. Ed says that SP is “an attempt to dispell the fruitful conclusions of Vatican II”. Perhaps ED has not read the documents of Vatican II. Sacrasanctum Concilium states that Latin is to be retained and Gregorian Chant is to be given pride of place. Summorun Pontificum is surely helpful in these respects.

The phrase “fruitful conclusions of Vatican II” could also do with some examination. Is Ed referring to plumitting church attendance and the collapse in vocations to the religious life?

Summorum Pontificum has been successful so far. What is needed now in England and Wales is for the Bishops to take it further by ensuring that al seminarians have the opportunity to learn to celebrate Mass in the usur antiquior.

You' ll be surprised, but even after Summum Pontificum we still don't have many traditional masses here in Rome. By the way, I could notice a slight increase in the use of finer vestments and, thank God, organ music during Mass. Just to mention something more specific, in my First Communion we just sung modern hymns; last year, my nephew could enjoy Ave Verum Corpus. Baby steps, yet significant for the restoration of beauty and mystery to liturgy.

Fr. Mac…

This is so sad to hear. But what happens 10, 20, 30, 50 years from now? Sure, I would have liked to have seen EF Masses in every parish by November of 2007, but I realize that if that's ever going to happen, it's going to be a Mass at one parish this year, maybe another the next year…and so on.

In May of 2007, we had ONE EF Mass in our Diocese each week. We now have 5 regularly scheduled at 5 different parishes throughout the Diocese as well as a dedicated FSSP Parish with a full schedule (and full pews I'll add…) that was established in 2009. NONE of that would have happened without SP.

Resistance dies with the deaths of those who resist.