Debate: Are we better off with a smaller, purer Church?

Cardinal Ratzinger was obviously musing on this point and in no way wishing it. It's not chiefly about numbers but surely every Catholic wants as many people to be Catholic so at least they have the chance to discover the fullness of the Truth.

We are better off with a purer Church. If it is smaller then this is regrettable, but if becoming smaller is necessary for purity; then so be it. A diluted Church which seeks to move it's doctrine with the times (I'm not opposed to adapting teaching methods) is likely to be no more enduring in its influence than a political party in democratic country . . . in vogue sometimes . . . out of it in others . . . constantly adapting its values to society and as opposed to trying to shape them for society's benefit. The Church's great blessing is that not having to be elected it can be pure if it anchors itself in God and its own Tradition.

The question is back to front. Choosing to be a Catholic and go to Mass is rightly a matter of free will. So there will always be a place for less committed Catholics, if they want to come. No-one will throw them out. Given the chance, they may even grow in faith and that's what we all want and need.

The question is rather: Should the Church water down the faith in order to appeal to as many people as possible, and be a big, incoherent Church?

And there the answer is an emphatic: NO!

I agree with Bachmann in saying the pope was not seeking a smaller church. There is no reason that a smaller church would be purer.

Also, the Parable of the Wheat & the Tares comes into play here. Good & bad will exist side by side. The thrust of the gospels is that the church exists for sinners and seeks to save us all: those who are well do no need a doctor.” Of course, the point is that we all need God's forgiveness. As well as Newman, The Pope looks to St Benedict who gave guidance for a school for sinners. Whatever the outcome- and that may be known only to God- we must witness to Europe's Christian heritage.

It seems to me that there is very slowly a move away from liberalism within the Church and this seems to the possible trend over the next 100 years.

I suspect that as a firmer doctrine takes over that the Church will naturally increase in size rather than diminish. I think that the newer converts to the church do not want liberalism but something that is closer to the truth. I also agree with Robert T. that there is absolutely no reason why a smaller Church would be purer.

I can only hope that there will be a move away from the false 'interpretation of liberalism' that occurred at Vatican II. Pope Benedict has shown us the way and finally reassured priests that the traditional forms of mass should never have been over looked. This is only the start.

The faith should be shared with as many people as possible but this will not occur by being liberal. I suspect that in the following 50 years that liberal bishops will slowly go out of favour.

This is about what God wants whether one likes it or not. God's will is sometimes difficult to accept, however. But for some reason He wants things a certain way. The path to salvation is narrow, He warns. Commitment is central to his plan. The proof? Look at what He asked of Abraham. Consider what He asked of His own son, Mary and Himself.

One approaches Him “in fear and trembling”, recognizing that without his grace, what Abraham accepted to do and salvation is just not possible.

Now what was it that was being asked?

We are witnessing the death of Catholic culture everywhere because all cultures are dying. Cultural anthropologists have been predicting this gradual cultural demise for sometime.

The internet is smashing all the icons of the past, religouis and otherwise. Peoples are alienated from their past and their associations because they have become member of a world culture. Just as the printing press competed with the organs of the Church for the minds and hearts of Europeans spreading the Reformed faith through pamphleteers. Radio and television accomplish the same results.

A powerful factor in the demise of a Catholic culture here in the U.S.was following World War II. Catholics constituted a tremendous portion of the great trek from their base in the cities to the new suburbs. Thus ending the power of the city-based parish pastor over the social, religious, and political life of his flock. The same care and attention wasn't possible now. The sense of community was lost as well. American Catholics were becoming indistinguishable from their Protestant neighbors.

So, should we be surprised to see the “Calvinizing” tendencies in Catholic liturgy flowing from Vatican II?

The direct result of this has been this, almost half of all Catholics today never attend parochial school or a Catholic university. The U.S. business community and the professions–outgrowths of this post war suburbanization– have a very high level of their members who are Catholic senior executives, physicians, accountants, architects, members of the performing arts, middle managers, and lawyers.

Those between 24 and 48 have become the backbone of the alienation from Catholic teachings on abortion, divorce, birth control, and gay marriage . They no longer identify with their old world Catholicism in any way. Today more of them aren't even attending the Catholic Church regularly.

The Catholic cultural decline may be blunted somewhat by the fact that by 2030 three-fifths of all Catholics in the U.S. will be from Spanish or Portuguese speaking backgrounds. They will be far less affluent and decidedly less well educated too. A good percentage of them will be from Mexico and can be expected to be Mormons or pentecostals.

Yes, the Holy Father's comments are prognostications – he is clearly against 'strategy'. Pope Benedict's visit itself has shown that the church has something precious, 'pure' if you like, which we shall not compromise. The reassertion of this is not repugnant to those on the periphery of the church, or outside her. On the contrary it has attracted them! 'Going with the flow' is against everything the holy father said when he was here and would be the doom of the church. Emphatically this is not designed to keep people out, or to shake off 'flaking catholics'. Like Thomas Merton, I thank God there are churches open for prayer all day and for all comers.

Although many below have said truly what they were urged, this question, is like asking if Man wants to die.
What's the point? No, man does not want to die. The problem is the 'lack' of Correct Teaching. We in the Catholic world have 'confused' the world by always changing Rules, VAT 1, VAT 2, as mentioned below. Christianity is really very straightforward. Trying to teach an mid-aged person to turn from their atheistic lifestyle with words, doesn't cut it. When a person is urged by the Holy Spirit, a non-believer to all of a sudden, become one, what happens? Nobodies there. The Priest is not around, the office personnel isn't well trained, and the person, goes to a Protestant, and then, the ball rolls down hill. Later that person is then, anti-Catholic, because the Protestants, are mostly anti-Catholic.

Not enough properly Trained Catholics. Every Catholic by the definition, that is spelled out in the Gospel, should be able to properly bring new converts. The reception is limited on this side of things, while the Protestant side jump at new converts, converge on them, overwhelm the new convert and make them feel second to none. This does not happen on this side. Who's fault is this?

The Acts of the Apostles, very straightforward. No Formulas, no delays, Direct. The Holy Spirit, moves like the Wind, one second He's here, the next, here's some place else. He has many hearts, asking many questions as to why, the True Church, is non-responsive. I'll give you a few reasons: Too dull to Gospel Words; everything is now made into a 'Cookie Cutter' wait in line and wait your turn. Just like the Heathen world when we stand in line for a driver's license.

The Pagan's should be jealous of us, because we should be loving one another. The pagan world does not have this exclusive Love. They want it, but they are treated better in their places of work, which is 'sub-par.'

Too much government in this side of things, a very simple, thing did Christ bring, but men have turned this into an 'Enterprise' where you take a number and wait. The Spirit does not work like humans. He is not Human. Humanity creates walls, and blocks, the humanity in us. We have to become spirit. Jesus was not a man like us, He was 'spirit.' He talked to us as infants, spirits still embryonic to help us grow our spirits.

There are many embryonic spirits in the Church. They are starving.

Peace be with you always