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Are our seminarians being taught about the Extraordinary Rite? And if not, why not?

The Pope’s wishes are quite clear. But are our bishops carrying them out?

By on Monday, 14 March 2011

Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos celebrates Mass in the Extraordinary Form at the Basilica of St Mary Major in Rome (CNS photo from Catholic Press Photo)

Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos celebrates Mass in the Extraordinary Form at the Basilica of St Mary Major in Rome (CNS photo from Catholic Press Photo)

Cardinal Rigali, Archbishop of Philadelphia, has recently declared that the Extraordinary Rite should be available “to those who prefer it”, and that seminarians ought to be taught to say it. He isn’t just talking the talk but walking the walk: he is introducing seminarians to the Extraordinary Form at the St Charles Borromeo seminary (this vast establishment is one of the sights of Philadelphia) with teaching on the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum “that elucidates the theology underlying the 1962 Missal so that the seminarians are afforded a clear understanding of the Motu Proprio and the Holy Father’s pastoral concern for the faithful who have a deep love for the Tridentine liturgy”. He also said that “seminary course work in theology, liturgy and Church history will cover and expound upon the Holy Father’s initiative. It will be helpful for them to see the continuity between the two expressions, but will also afford the opportunity to address the changes that took place in the liturgy following the Second Vatican Council.”

What is happening here? This isn’t the first we have heard of the idea of training seminarians in the celebration of the Extraordinary Rite: according to a CNS story in 2008, “the Vatican” was then writing to all seminaries to request that all candidates for the priesthood should be trained to celebrate the Mass according to the Tridentine Rite.
 
Well, it seems that now (quite soon if you think of the glacial pace at which these things happen) something seems to be stirring in Philadelphia as a result of this letter. But what about this country? Is Cardinal Rigali responding to the Vatican letter or is he acting on his own convictions? Come to think of it, was the letter, in fact, ever sent to the seminaries? The source of the CNS story was Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos, who was then still president of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei (the outfit set up to try to re-establish full communion with the SSPX), and therefore a committed traditionalist. Was Cardinal Castrillón’s statement just a bit of Roman gossip, given conviction by his own wishful thinking?

So, did our own seminaries in fact ever get a letter about the use of the Extraordinary Rite? Even if they didn’t, those running them (as well as the bishops themselves) must know that it is the Pope’s wish that the “Old Mass” should be more widely available. So are our seminarians currently being trained in the celebration of both authorised forms of the Latin rite? This is a genuine question. I would be interested to hear (anonymously if necessary) from anyone at present undergoing seminary training for the priesthood what is actually going on.
 
And what, while we are on the subject, about the selection of our future priests? It certainly used to be the case that any applicant for priestly training who revealed the slightest interest in or approval of, not just the “Old Mass” but even the idea of celebrating the Novus Ordo in Latin, to the diocesan bureaucrats entrusted with weeding out supposedly unsuitable candidates, would have his application immediately blocked. Has that all changed, in the new atmosphere following the papal visit? Or is it still going on?
 
If not, that’s the first thing to which our bishops need to turn their attention if they really want the “Benedict bounce” to maintain its momentum. They should tell their underlings to stop blocking candidates for the diocesan priesthood who want to teach and be formed by the authentic tradition of the Catholic Church.
 
Second, they need to be absolutely sure that it is that tradition which is the ultimate source of the priestly formation of our future clergy. And one of the things that needs to be re-established there is that in what is still officially described as “the Church of the Latin Rite”, our priests need to be competent in the Latin tongue. The deliberations of Vatican II, don’t forget, were conducted entirely in Latin: it was the lingua franca of the assembled bishops, in both formal utterances and informal conversation. If (which God forbid any time soon) there were ever a Vatican III, could the world’s bishops talk to each other in Latin? I doubt it. And simultaneous translation, with so many languages involved, would surely be impractical. So: there’s an inducement for any remaining Tabletista bishops: learn Latin yourself (and make sure your seminarians are taught it) or there will be no hope of a Vatican III, ever (hee, hee).
 
The first thing they should do is make sure that our future priests can at least understand and celebrate the Novus Ordo in Latin. Incidentally, while we are on the subject of the Novus Ordo, one of my SSPX friends asked me, a blog or two ago, why, if I believed that the Novus Ordo is so clearly valid (which I do), I had also written some weeks before that “the English Mass we have is by the skin of its teeth a valid Catholic rite”. What I was talking about in that blog was our reductionist English translation of the Mass, which, thank heaven, is now on its last legs: and though I didn’t say so I was thinking particularly of Eucharistic Prayer II. But in Latin, there’s no doubt at all about the validity of any of the prayers of the Novus Ordo: and our seminarians ought to be thoroughly familiar with the Rite in the ancient tongue of the Church of the Latin Rite. Start there: and we will be on our way. Then (and not too much later: a month or two at the outside) start teaching the great riches of the Extraordinary Rite and of the tradition of which it is one majestic embodiment.

I cannot resist ending by quoting Cardinal Castrillón again: “This kind of worship is so noble, so beautiful,” he said. “The worship, the music, the architecture, the painting, makes a whole that is a treasure. The Holy Father is willing to offer to all the people this possibility, not only for the few groups who demand it but so that everybody knows this way of celebrating the Eucharist in the Catholic Church.”  This is not just an expression of an old man’s nostalgia: it is an aspiration for a revolution that would renew and invigorate the whole Church.  There may be a mountain still to climb: but we have been pointed by the Holy Father in the right direction, we have already reached the foothills, and the only way forward is up.

  • Dr Russell J Berry

    What Bishop? Do we have any left?

  • Chaucer3930

    Of course, the Tridentine rite ought to be deeply known, if not prayed, by all priests. Imagine, for instance, a professor of poetry, or any lover of poetry, who was only acquainted with poetry written since 1980, let alone any poetry written before the 20th century! Why would any such person cut himself off from the stupendous treasures of the poetic lives of centuries of people who lived before him? The whole idea is an absurd contradiction, in my view, really snobby. Likewise, to amputate ourselves from our liturgical history, to me, is such a ridiculous impoverishment that I can’t formulate an intelligent argument for doing so.

  • Torkay

    Dear Father,

    The TLM is not a piece of consumer goods regulated by the artificial laws of supply and demand. The demand should be in your soul, thirsting for Our Lord and Lady through the Sacred Deposit of Faith, and the only liturgy which embodies it. It will also return you, in quite a radical way, to your proper role as alter christus. The Novus Ordo is a diabolically crafted deception, designed to appear to be Catholic, but which is not Catholic at all. If you have not read Dan Graham’s shocking analysis of what texts were stripped from the TLM, and what was added, to create the Novus Ordo, may I recommend it highly: http://www.catholictruthscotland.com/DanGrahamMassdifferences.pdf

  • Tiggy

    We are aware of this Mr Oddie. Unfortunately no Priest in the Diocese is able( or willing?) to celebrate the EF. We had a Priest from another Diocese lined up, so that was why we had to consult the Bishop.

  • Jeff

    Here Here to that. I love the Tridentine Rite. We need to spread back thorughout the Church and resotre a sense of orthodoxy and reverence. Which is severly lacking, espcially in the USA.

  • Dan

    Dr Oddie,
    Many bishops, including the Ordinary of my diocese are completely open to any priest offering the TLM.
    He does not put any roadblocks in the way.
    The problem in many diocese are that priests do not want to learn the TLM [for whatever reason] even though many of the faithful are asking for it.
    What is needed is for a Papal madate that requires all Catholic parishes to offer at least one TLM on Sundays and holy days, within one year from this time.
    That would give priests and parishes time to get it right.
    After all almost all parishes offer several NO Masses in English, Spanish, Ibo, tagalog, etc etc.
    Why not the TLM?

  • Dan

    Dr Oddie,
    Many bishops, including the Ordinary of my diocese are completely open to any priest offering the TLM.
    He does not put any roadblocks in the way.
    The problem in many diocese are that priests do not want to learn the TLM [for whatever reason] even though many of the faithful are asking for it.
    What is needed is for a Papal madate that requires all Catholic parishes to offer at least one TLM on Sundays and holy days, within one year from this time.
    That would give priests and parishes time to get it right.
    After all almost all parishes offer several NO Masses in English, Spanish, Ibo, tagalog, etc etc.
    Why not the TLM?

  • Denis

    Agreed, which is why your third party advocacy on his behalf is quite ironic. I was merely stating my views about the possible implications of choosing the word “calumniating,” given what it connotes. It’s quite obvious that I’m not advocating on anyone’s behalf, but merely stating my interpretation of what was said.

  • Dan

    Theology of the Church is universal.
    Thus Catholic.

    Not a good move calling a Cardinal Prince of the Catholic Church a clown.
    Hope there are confessions in your parish.

  • Nestorius

    Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos’ letter to the French Bishop Pierre Pican said,
    “You have acted well and I am pleased to have a colleague in the episcopate who, in the eyes of history and of all other bishops in the world, preferred prison to denouncing his son and priest.”
    Bishop Pican received a 3 month prison sentence rather than denounce one of his priests for molesting a child.

    This took place in 2001. Father Lombardi has distanced the Holy See from the Cardinals remarks, saying this why it was necessary that that year, 2001, such cases were removed from the jurisdiction of the Congregation for the Clergy, of which the Cardinal was head, to the CDF under Cardinal Ratzinger.

  • Nestorius

    If you were in my parish I would give up as well.

  • Dan

    Does this make it right calling a Cardinal of the Church a “clown”?

  • Anonymous

    And you think that little story makes you a superior individual to Cardinal Hoyos with the right to denounce him as a clown?

    Who was the priest in question? Was he guilty of the crime he was accused of, or was the accusation made by some long-time drop out motivated by financial compensation during a time of hysterical clerical hatred?

    Was the alleged abuse recent or was it from forty years ago, in which case it would be like so many others that resemble Muslim Sharia law in Pakistan, in that one need only accuse without the burden of proof being required for a guilty verdict?

    France is particularly hostile to Catholicism. Hence, it wouldn’t take much for the French authorities to send even a Bishop to prison.

    Ever heard the admonition: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?” There is quite enough tragedy in the handful of proven cases of priestly abuse of children without you adding to it by your speculation.

    If you are so concerned with the sexual abuse of minors, however, as we all should be, then why not take up the case against Peter Tatchell, the so-called Rights campaigner, who agitates for the lowering of the age of sexual consent in Britain to age 14, and who once spoke openly of his knowledge of a friend who had been in a sexual relationship with a minor. He wasn’t sent to prison!

    If that doesn’t interest you, then perhaps you would like to wage war on those European countries, France, Portugal and Spain, for example, where the age of sexual consent, of either persuasion, is 15, 14 and 13 years repsectively. You never read about that ‘open season on children’ in the newspapers!

  • http://www.freewebs.com/fjgajewski/ Ferdinand Gajewski

    Is everyone here familiar with Cardinal Ottaviani’s critique of the NO?
    http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/ottaviani.htm

  • Jeannine

    For those who are pessimistic about not having the Extraordinary Form prayed more often, please be patient.

    http://www.op-stjoseph.org/blog/hope_for_the_entire_church?utm_source=Dominican+Daily&utm_campaign=d6af2e2acf-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email.

    The Dominicans, some Benedictines, & of course the FSSP are on board. Give them time to preach & teach about the Tridentine Mass to the other clergy & laity. IMO it was always the religious orders who nudged the bishops in the appropriate direction.

  • Christina

    This link should cheer up Dr. Oddie and you, Leprechaun, if it comes through in spite of my well-known computer illiteracy. If it doesn’t, I’ll try again tomorrow – oops – later today.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-12732140

  • Dr Russell J Berry

    Gosh, Denis, the last of my intentions was to play advocate for Dr Oddie, not that I would not defend his right to say what he likes provided that he does not expect his readers to take what he writes as anything more than personal opinion (which is what it mostly is) and, of course, when he writers things that he really knows are not ‘true’ in the received sense of the word.

  • Dr Russell J Berry

    Would Nestorius believe in princes of the church, I wonder…..? Does he even truly believe in confession?
    We have to understand that people like Nestorius are the true and authentic face of newchurch. He is not wrong or out of step. In their church it is we that do not belong.

  • Dr Russell J Berry

    Dear Nestorius

    Please supply your source and reference so we may read the original

    I find what you write absolutely shocking, of course.

    Please tell us what prompted you to share this intelligence with us? What reasons had you for writing it, here and now?

    Pax et Bonum

    RB

  • Dr Russell J Berry

    Dear Nestorius

    Why the brief piece of gratuitous rudeness, please

    RB

  • Anonymous

    In memoriam.

    Veterum Sapientia: Feb 22nd 1962-Oct 10th 1962.

    -

    “The Pope, having stood firm to start with, later gave orders that the implementation of the document should not be insisted on; those who would have had the duty of putting it into effect imitated this papal weakness and, Veterum Sapientia, which had been loudly praised as useful and opportune, was completely wiped from memory and it is not cited in any conciliar document. Some biographies of John XXIII do not mention it at all, just as if it did not exist and never had; while the more arrogant accounts mention it simply as an error. There is not, in the whole history of the Church, another instance of a document’s being so solemnly emphasised and then being so unceremoniously cast out so soon afterwards, like the corpse of an executed criminal. The question remains, however, whether it was struck out of the book of the living because of the unwisdom shown in promulgating it, or because of the lack of courage shown when it came to demanding its implementation.” – Prof. Romano Amerio (Vatican II peritus to Bishop Angelo Jelmini, of Lugano), Iota Unum – A study of the changes in the Catholic Church in the XXth century, Ch. 3; Para. 32.

    -

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

  • Dr Russell J Berry

    “Logic is fascist”. Thus spake the young presbyter who said that “latin and logic are all going out of the window so we can be free, as the spirit wishes us to be”.

    My fondness – as a 17 year old in 1969 – for the young man in question and his seemingly disinterested and sincere care for me blinded me to the folly of his words and the flawed nature of his thinking. Excusable when you are 17 and you want to be loved and esteemed by the equivalent of the ‘head boy’ figure.

    By my 18th birthday I delighted still in his company but I had left him behind intellectually and I saw all too many of the inconsistencies of his liberalised reasoning, and not just about Latin and Logic.

    He is gone, now. ‘Presbyter’ no more. Married and a father to four boys, all of whom he has brought up as most traditional Roman Catholics.

    He recognises that his possible vocation to the whatever they want to call it was ruined by the intellectual falseness and corruption of Modernism. Rightly and with the most burning of sorrows for the loss of his dream, he now sees both Logic and Latin as formidable obstacles to the perversion of both liturgy and doctrine that has been wrought over the past 50 years.

    It is no kindness to flirt with those who are misled. It is wickedly perverse and most unkind. People must be loved and told when they are wrong. Not to do so only leads to the unedifying sight of the Pope presiding over blasphemous and syncretistic prayer-fests that defile sites of veneration and holiness, such as Assisi.

    Kyrie eleison

    RB

  • Christina

    The pointed sarcasm might not be too wide of the mark, Torkay. An Anglican priest/covert told me a while ago that, when he was being psychologically assessed for his suitability to begin seminary training for the Catholic priesthood, the nun/psychologist asked him “Have you ever seen your mother naked?”. Watching his reaction she said “That seems to make you uncomfortable”, to which he replied “It only makes me think that the Catholic Church is obsessed with sex”! You might well indeed ask what religion is being taught at UK seminaries.

    However, re the UK bishops being Protestant, there might be grounds for hope and prayer. I was born in the Diocese of Shrewsbury, and when Bishop Mark Davies was recently appointed to the see, friends contacted me rejoicing that they had at last got a Catholic bishop, and a young one. Being well and truly weary and battle-scarred, having fought as an LMS representative for many years against an inimical bishop, his clerical cronies and his timid priests, I didn’t take too much notice, but yesterday they sent me the link that I have posted up near the beginning of this thread (about the 7th post). Do look at it, and then pray for him. He will surely need it.

  • RJ

    I note that the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) of VII teaches “in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles” and mentions the “sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff ” (18.).

    It also says “the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact.” (22.) Moreover, though the bishops do have power, “This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff.” (22.), and again: “bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head….”

    I can’t reconcile that with your statement that VII teaches “primus inter pares”, if that means they are in all respects his equals.

  • Charles Martel

    Dear Dr Oddie,
    Thanks again for your Lenten resolution. I really wish all traditionally-minded Catholics could call a ceasefire and work together on so many issues that face us. As an SSPX supporter (I once served Archbishop Lefebvre’s Mass), I admit that some SSPX supporters go over the top sometimes. Likewise, traditionally-minded people like Fr Z are sometimes gratuitously nasty about the SSPX. Fr Tim Finigan (http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/), on the other hand, shows how it should be done – always charitable and balanced. Let’s argue through our differences in charity.

  • WSquared

    Mr. Cooper, I empathize and I sympathize with your concerns about where many things have gone after Vatican II (or, rather, “The Spirit of Vatican II”). I’m one of the young-’uns and a revert who would like to see a wider availability of the Latin Mass, but knowing a bit more about the Mass and the Sacraments as I do now, I attend the Novus Ordo knowing better where to focus my attention. And I second Mr. Leprechaun’s comments about the Real Presence and Apostolic Succession. Your passion and the devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass should not stop you from receiving the Sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church. While I share your concern about orthodoxy, I think that intrinsic to that orthodoxy is receiving valid sacraments. God bless you, sir.

  • Dr Russell J Berry

    You have got him (DR Oddie) there…..bang to rights, one might say.

  • Anonymous

    RJ,

    In reply to your reconciliation problem, please see this extract from Vatican II – Voice of the Church:
    ————————————–
    A Fundamental issue: Who leads and governs the Catholic Church?

    There is more than one reason for the “terrible loss” of which Albert Nolan writes. Surely the biggest single cause is that the Vatican has suppressed, neutered or failed to implement several important Council teachings and has increasingly centralized the appointment of bishops. Vatican II taught:

    1. Every Bishop in communion with ‘Peter’ is a Vicar of Christ
    (Lumen Gentium art. 27).
    2. The Church is governed by all the bishops as successors of the apostles, but always with the Successor of Peter (cf. Lumen Gentium art. 22).
    3. The primacy of the Bishop of Rome was confirmed.
    ————————————

    This has been interpreted differently by the bishops than was its original intention. The results can be seen around us in all manner of examples of disobedience by bishops towards the Pope, including ignoring Summorum Pontificum, communion to be received kneeling and on the tongue et cetera.

    Vatican II Documents were deliberately riddled with ambiguities in order to provide room for “justifiable” dissent – justifiable on the grounds that the deed was signed off at Vatican II.

    So, yes, RJ, you and I can read what the documents said – but we can also see how the contents have been applied – and there is a world of difference.

  • Anonymous

    “So why does the world’s media focus solely on the Catholic Church, I wonder?”….perhaps because the Church sets itself up as a global moral authority that seeks to defend traditional family values.

  • Anonymous

    Try something called Google, Doc(?).

  • RJ

    Interesting website. I wonder if it is entirely reliable.

  • Anonymous

    Perhaps you should look at how things have worked out in practice, RJ. I would suggest, for example, a thorough investigation into how the abuse of Communion in the hand entered the Church, together with the widespread use of “extraordinary” ministers of the Eucharist. Both became widespread despite the pope saying no.

    It is also worth noting that the re-ordering of a good many churches in the immediate aftermath of Vatican II, i.e., the removal of high altars, altar rails and even tabernacles, was done without the consent of the pope.

    Perhaps you may even like to take a look at the Fr. Wagner case in Linz, Austria, whose appointment as auxilliary Bishop of Linz by the pope was blocked by rebelling Bishops who thought him too traditional. Fr. Wagner stood down from the appointment but made no secret about the episcopal pressure brought to bear on him. Of course, everyone knows that the episcopacy in Germany/Austria is only a stone’s throw away from full schism with Rome.

    These are just a few examples to start with, and that’s before we touch on Summorum Pontificum.

  • Anonymous

    But too many priests are still afraid to celebrate the Mass because they know that the Bishop will move them quickly to Swaziland! Bishops can influence the clergy in so many indirect ways.

  • Dan

    “…because the Church sets itself up as a global moral authority that seeks to defend traditional family values.”
    Nestorius,
    If you mean Christ set up the Church as a global moral authority that seeks to defend traditional family values then you are correct.

  • Anonymous

    I agree. The Godless media wants to wipe out the only global moral authority that stands between the traditional Christian family and a full return to perverse paganism. Well spotted!

  • Robert Daniels-Dwyer

    If the extraordinary form were sympathetically translated into English, how would this change the dynamics of the argument? Is the objection to Vatican II and the novus ordo, that it effectively denied Catholics their heritage of Latin as the historical universal language of the Church in western Europe, or that it replaced something beautiful and long-developed with something functional and rushed?

  • Dr Russell J Berry

    I believe not. I believe not because the argument is not about Latin – it is much more purely linguistic in that the maxim ‘lex orandi lex credendi’ highlights and underpins the problem, which is the expression of Roman Catholic and Orthodox Docrine as to the nature of the Mass. Of course what I mean to say is that words of the novus ordo service do not express the Roman Catholic theology of what the Mass is. No ‘sympathetic translation’ of the novus ordo could ever express clearly and without amibiguity the immemorial teaching of the Church. Bells and smells and pretty vestments and dignity of celebration will not change the nature of the novus ordo, which isModernist and liberal protestant. Just because you put lipstick on a pig will not make the pig anything other than what it is – a pig.

  • DBMcGinnity

    What is all the Fuss About?
    This morning I went to “Novus Ordo” mass; and received Holy Communion in a requisite disposition. When I got home, my next door neighbour asked if I would accompany her to the Methodist church service, which I did. Both services were wonderful, and if a spaceman came to earth he would not have noticed the difference, except that the Mass was conducted by a man and the Methodist service by a woman. The same readings were used and the theme of the homily was similar. First reading Samuel 16:1, 6-7, 10-13, Psalm 23:1-6 The Epistle Ephesians 5:8-14 the Gospel was John 9:1-41 or John 9:1, 6-9, 13-17, 34-38

    The homily in both cases was concerned with “The love of worldly possessions is a sort of bird line, which entangles the soul, and prevents it flying to God” by St. Augustine

    This afternoon I will attend an SSPX Tridentine Mass, which to me is the Grand Opera of all religious services. I love going, I find the ritual and singing of the Gregorian Chant spirituality and solemnity overwhelming. I feel the presence of God, and I will receive Holy Communion again. I anticipate that the Epistle and Gospel will be for today, the Fourth Sunday of Lent.

    What is all the fuss about?. I love Grand Opera and New Orleans Traditional Jazz and Blues. They are all wonderful music and are very uplifting. Who has the right to decide where and how I give homage to God. The lady that I went to The Methodist Church with, spends her time as a volunteer teaching and working with children on a renal dialysis unit. Is she a bad person who is destined to go to hell? Will I go to hell for doing what I feel is right for me?

  • http://www.freewebs.com/fjgajewski/ Fjgajewski

    “In March of 1965, in the periodical L’Osservatore Romano, [Archbishop Annibale] Bugnini was quoted as saying: “We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Protestants.” The identity of Roman Catholic NO and Methodist rites which you describe would have pleased Bugnini, don’t you think. Read about his mischief here: http://www.angelqueen.org/articles/04-02_bugnini.shtml

  • DBMcGinnity

    I read the article about Archbishop Bugnini but sadly it is beyond me in terms of credulity. I attended the SSPX Tridentine Mass, because to me is the Grand Opera like La Traviata, or The Swan Lake Ballet. The “Novus Ordo” is good for informal meeting friends and having a good chat and singing hymns in 4/4 time. The rest (all religion) reminds me of “The Odyssey” with Gods and demons and magic and superstition. The business of heaven and hell is ‘old hat’ that no rational person could accept in this day and age. I am reading “The Good Book” by A C Grayling. I strongly recommend it because it is rational, credible, and exhilarating to read.

  • Czarina

    I’m one of the “younger faithful”, who returned to the church a year ago after a loooong lapse.
    Out of curiosity, I attended a Tridentine mass in a small Pennsylvania town. To say I experienced a profound spiritual reawakening cheapens the experience. I have been transformed.

    The community of people longing for the Latin mass is YOUNG and growing. As Catholics, we should have both access to both vernacular and Latin mass.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/fjgajewski/ Ferdinand Gajewski PhD

    During Vatican II the Council fathers were running around like so many chickens with their heads cut off. It might have been better for all the faithful had the classical mass (now the “E”F oy vey) been left intact as one option. A new rite, properly confected (and named the “EF”) might have been installed as well. Everyone would have been happy. People, particularly those of a certain age, would not have been disaffected (should I say scandalized?) and those who panted for modernization (should I say modernism?) would have been satisfied.

  • Poulettictac

    Go again and again and take other younger people with you! You need to do your part to ensure that as many younger Catholics as possible share your experience. Take as many younger Catholics as you can so they can share the experience. This is NOT ‘the extraordinary Rite of Mass’. It is the fully catholic Rite of Mass. The Novus Ordo Missae is ‘exceptional’ in that it is NOT fully the Catholic Rite of Mass and no serious theologian, now, will pretend that it is.GO AGAIN AND AGAIN! PROSELYTISE! SPREAD THE WORD!

  • Poulettictac

    What is all the Fuss About? It is about sacramental theology. It is about validity and it is about catholic worship. It is not about musical taste. It is not about bells and smells, fancy or plain vestments, lace. The gender of the ‘minister’, ‘presbyter’ or ‘celebrant’. All these things I know you know. It does not do you justice to write as you did – it was a reduction ‘ad absurdum’. I know that you are an erudite and well read man, which is why I say what I do. Best wishes. RB

  • DBMcGinnity

    “Leave you in Peace”
    Being erudite and well read means nothing, unless it is accompanied with “Gestalt” open-mindedness towards everything on earth. I have studied all catholic subjects in depth, ‘ad nausea’ and in my view there is nothing logical about sacramental theology and sadly, in my lifetime, catholic worship has not been justified or validated. However, if you can provide justification and validation, I will take it very seriously, and I will act on it.

    I have studied all the current topics in The Catholic Herald and I have studied all the reactions to the topics and I am sad to say that there is clear evidence of gross disunity and some bitterness. Some contributors have spent far too much time dishing out arrogance, vitriol and venom. Therefore, on the face of it, perhaps it is Catholic Teaching that is ‘ad absurdum’.

    Anyhow, someone has complained about my sort of contribution to the editor and he has given me a “yellow card”, As a result, I suspect that anything I express will have little impact on most of the writers. I believe that “Action Speaks Louder than Words” and the actions of the Roman Catholic Church (especially in Ireland) have spoken very loudly, just what the church stands for: Greed and Corruption!!

    When Jesus said: “Peace I Leave You” He was joking. So like Jesus, I will also “Leave you in Peace”

  • Poulettictac

    I have no wish for you to leave and I wish you would not, please! I do not know who complained to the Editor/Moderator but it seems to me that people should have the courage to stand behind their words and to be forward and centre with their criticisms. It is a deplorably poor thing when people sink to anonymous denunciations – very ‘seminary’ but deplorably unChristian and unCatholic, in my view.

    I disagree with plenty that you write but I do not wish you to disappear from here. If you give it out you can take it, in return, with the best of us. There are many here who should not be here because they hide in the shadows and are not creatures evidently at home in the light where their true views or opinions can be seen.

    Stay, you add something, here, and disrupt no sane person.

  • DBMcGinnity

    There is Nothing Useful that I can Add

    Please read the comments regarding: “If you want to explain why the Pope respects the religious instincts of non-Catholics, read Pio Nono”, and you will understand why it is quite pointless for any sane or reasoned person to give any credence whatsoever to these diatribes. You attributed me as erudite and well read, may I reciprocate with the same deference to you. So with that in mind how could any potential Catholic be attracted to or be inspired by such vitriolic haranguing of other Roman Catholics? There is clear evidence of blatant disregard for the tenets of The Ten Commands, The Beatitudes, The Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy, but to name a few Christian concepts. There is nothing useful that I can add, but to sum up my opinion of the Catholic Church in the words of Groucho Marx.

    “I’m Against it” by Bert Kalmar and Harry Ruby

    I don’t know what they have to say,
    It makes no difference anyway,
    Whatever it is, I’m against it.
    No matter what it is or who commenced it,
    I’m against it.

    Your proposition may be good,
    But let’s have one thing understood,
    Whatever it is, I’m against it.
    And even when you’ve changed it or condensed it,
    I’m against it.

    This song is consistent with the Catholic Church hierarchy’s tactics of deceit, delay and denial”.

  • DBMcGinnity

    A devout old priest said to me in 1975: “Is it not strange that the Mass celebrated by the ‘Curé of Ars’, and the last thing heard by many soldiers before going battle during WWI and WWII is now rubbish, and it has been replaced with the ‘Monterey Summer of Love’ variety. Soon it will be ‘Flower Power and Holy Water’ for all.

  • Poulettictac

    Quite so! The Mass was ditched by people who had a pervese and rotten agenda and, like all mountebanks, they lied and lied and lied again to the Roman Catholc Church at large, making the Faithful believe this neo-protestant cranmerian worship service was some sort of translation of the real thing. In reality, it was ‘an entirely new creation’ as Abp Bugnini, himself, said of it. One lie after another, down though half a century, and still the remnant of that neo-liberal protestant coterie who masquerade as catholics deceive and mislead, aided and abetted by the self-styled experts.who infest the columns of the once-Catholic press. The Church of Lurve is open to one and all – it matters not who you are as long as you are not a Roman Catholic who refuses to be bamboozled and hoodwinked by lying prelates of the new church and who refuses and disbelieves the perversion of third rate scribblers who pass themselves of as ‘catholic’. I would rather spend my days with honest protestants than with any of that snake-in-the grass crew. Give me an honest Luther or a Cranmer – they are better than those who continue to defraud the souls of Christian people.