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Why don’t we have more Novus Ordo Masses in Latin?

If you want a complete new rite Latin liturgy you have to go either to the very top or bottom of Britain

By on Monday, 21 March 2011

The Oxford Oratory welcomes the relics of St Thérèse (Photo: catholicrelics.co.uk)

The Oxford Oratory welcomes the relics of St Thérèse (Photo: catholicrelics.co.uk)

A recent letter in the Catholic Herald has caught my eye. The writer, Susan Carson-Rowland, was raising the question of the new English translation of the Mass, which she described as a “true rendering of the definitive Latin text to replace the inaccurate version we have endured for 40 years”. This situation has been lamented many times over during the last 40 years, both by traditionalists and those, like myself, who attend the Novus Ordo, and I have nothing new to add to the debate. What struck me about this letter was its author’s final question: “Why don’t we have Mass in Latin and avoid all this tiresome palaver?”

I only understood the full force of the question when I happened to attend an ordination to the diaconate at the Oxford Oratory last week. The Mass, sung in Latin according to the Novus Ordo, with the readings and rite of ordination in English, was celebrated magnificently. Bilingual service books were provided for those of us who had forgotten, or were unfamiliar with, the Latin. Of course, having a professional choir helped, though the congregation joined in singing the responses, the Credo and the Pater Noster. And it was a special occasion; I understand that generally Oratories celebrate Mass in the vernacular, while providing at least one Mass in Latin on Sundays and on solemnities.

My mole in the Association of Latin Liturgy tells me that the whole point of this association during the last 40 years has been to encourage the use of Latin (and the musical treasury of the Church, including plain chant) in the Novus Ordo, in an attempt to prevent Latin being swept away altogether. Their remit has been the document on the liturgy which stated: “The faithful must be able to say or sing together in Latin the parts of the Mass which pertain to them.”

Have the aims of the association failed? Judging from the ordinary practice of almost all parish Masses it would appear so. There are only three Oratories in this country and, as my mole further points out, if you want a complete new rite Latin liturgy you have to go either to Pluscarden Abbey in Moray, Scotland, or to St Cecilia’s Benedictine convent in Ryde, Isle of Wight – either the extreme north or the extreme south of the country.

Back to the question raised in the letter to the Herald: why don’t we have Mass in Latin?

  • http://ccfather.blogspot.com/ Ben Trovato

    Perhaps because the Ordinary Form is designed to be so horizontal that the vernacular is de facto, if not de jure, essential to it. Or to put it the other way around, once you realise the vertical nature of the Mass implied by the Latin, the next obvious step is to use the Extraordinary Form.

  • crouchback

    In our parish they have started singing the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in Latin……the rest of the mass is the usual off putting Novus Ordo that you can find anywhere….the result…..just another distraction.

    It gives me a sore head going there……so I prefer to absent my self.

    When the new translation comes in….how many Invalid masses will there be….??? as far as I’ve been told at least three priests around here have said that they don’t want the new translation….so when these priests say mass, what will their intention actually be. Will they be so upset that they will render their masses invalid…???

    Maybe at that point they will resort to the Latin…????…..in for a penny…..they may as well then turn to the Traditional Mass….

    Why not….????

  • http://twitter.com/UKYoungCatholic ukyoungcatholic

    I can think of a few reasons, but I’m sure there are more:

    First, the general misconception that the average layman is not interested in or is not able to follow Mass in Latin.

    Second, a reduced emphasis on the universality of the Church relative to the local community, such that a Mass customised to the congregation appears to take preference over the same Mass for all people everywhere.

    Third, the fact that many priests now have either never said Mass in Latin or not for a very long time, so doing so would present them with the burdensome problem of learning how.

    Fourth, the entirely false prejudice amongst liberal Catholics that those who favour Latin are intent on ‘winding back the clock’ or abolishing the Novus Ordo.

    None of them are good reasons and one hopes the Masses during the Papal Visit presented the faithful in England & Wales with an example that Mass in Latin in the Ordinary Form can enhance the transcendental reality of the Holy Sacrifice without relinquishing any feeling of participation.

  • http://twitter.com/UKYoungCatholic ukyoungcatholic

    You should try my local parish, where you’re lucky if the Sanctus or Agnus Dei are said in English. The Sanctus is often replaced with a verse from a hymn that loosely approximates the translation. On Sunday, the Agnus Dei was entirely omitted. For added fail factor, the priest decided to forgo a homily on the Transfiguration, which was replaced by a member of the parish council asking for money…

    Which is why I tend to go the London Oratory.

  • ProVobis

    If people were taught the Mass instead of asking for translations all the time, we would have been better off. The laziness in shutting off a sacred language in favor or everyday Protestant languages is appearing to take its toll. There are many who have been insulted with the vernacular, however they translate it.

  • Tiggy

    I think that is the problem. The vast majority of Priests have either never offered Mass in Latin or have not done so for a very long time.
    From time to time we have a very little Latin, or Greek, in the Mass. The liberals complain, it stops.
    Hurrah for the Oratory.

  • Auricularis

    Having Latin in the Novus Ordo will not solve the problems inherent in the reformed rite. The Novus Ordo, even in Latin, still pales in comparison to the traditional mass

  • Martin

    why don’t we have Mass in Latin?

    At the risk of upsetting everyone, I would suggest because people in general would prefer to say mass in their own language, fully understanding what is being said and fully able to particitate in what is being said.

    As long as the translation that is being use is accurate then personnally i think your own language is better than adopting another.

    Latin isn’t any more of a sacred language than the language of the country that the mass is said in, it isn’t more holy than the language of the country that the mass is said in. It is however part of tradition. But so is being allowed to say it in your country’s language now.

    God surely isnt any more pleased about one form of language than another? He made them all.

    Having the mass in the local language also allows for potential new converts to understand what is being said rather than being presented with something that is foreign and strange when they walk into church. It stops it being seen as some kind of magic rite (due to lack of understanding).

    I for one am happy with mass in my own tongue in the same way that i am happy that i can read the bible in my own language rather than another.

    I think (probably against the tide of opinion) that it has been for the best.

    (the accuracy of translation issue i will leave to experts).

  • http://ccfather.blogspot.com/ Ben Trovato

    I agree, but think it goes beyond that. A whole generation of priests were taught to turn their back on Latin and their faces to the people – to do a total volte-face: they were taught to believe that Latin was unhelpful and unwanted, and to mend their ways… As they had been brought up to obedience, they obeyed – possibly at some psychological cost to themselves. To expect them to turn back again is perhaps unrealistic.

    And then another generation was raised with Latin as the spectre and bogeyman from which the Church had just been liberated.

    It is only more recently that the Church has recovered some equilibrium over this, so I think that, despite a few very far-sighted, courageous and strong-willed older priests, we are going to have to wait until the younger priests are in a majority before we see Latin widely restored.

  • Paul_mather1

    The main reason for so few Masses in Latin is that the majority of priests did not study latin during their seminary training and are frightened of it. A switch to latin now would disturb their comfortable existence! The fault lies with the senior clerics in seminary who ignored the basics of Vatican 2 and pursued their own agenda

  • Joel Pinheiro

    Having gone on some occasions to a Tridentine Mass (never to a Novus Ordo in Latin, though), I must say I prefer understanding what the priest says clearly.

    Some changes (such as the priest and congregation facing the same way) might be good to make the liturgy more reverent. But as I have seen Novus Ordo Masses very well celebrated in the vernacular (in Opus Dei chapels, for instance, and in some parishes), I’m not sure it is necessary.

    Latin is no more a sacred language than English or Portuguese (which happens to be my language). When Christianity first came to Rome, Latin WAS the vernacular. I don’t think traditionalists made a big fuss about moving away from Hebrew or Aramaic.

  • Tiggy.

    I think that you are probably right that most people do prefer Mass in the vernacular. But there is a significant , and growing, minority who prefer Latin Liturgies. We are, after all, in the west, the Latin Rite, allegedly.
    I thought The NO in English was fine, still do, until I went to my first Latin Mass (EF). Then it was a bit like bog standard, versus vintage champagne!

  • Tim

    Just to point out to anyone interested that a Novus Ordo mass in Latin throughout apart from the scripture readings is said at Corpus Christi church, Boscombe, Bournemouth each Sunday at 11:00 am.

  • Martin

    What was the reason for you liking the latin mass better? Was it that it was new and therefore fresh to you? or maybe you understood Latin and were able to gain a better incite to what was being said. What made you prefer it? I am interested in your thoughts

  • Tiggy.

    Hard to define it Martin. I suppose it was the sense of another world. Also I have to say the silence. we tend to bombard God in the NO. There is always noise. Speaking or singing. In the EF the Canon of the Mass is Mostly payed quietly by the Priest. So if you like there is time to listen, as well as to speak

  • Anonymous

    “Back to the question raised in the letter to the Herald: why don’t we have Mass in Latin?”……because most priests, rightly, think the idea is barmy, my dear.

  • NevilleDeVilliers

    The final death knell to the ALL LATIN mass will be the new liturgies approved for the Anglican Ordinariate. All of the humbug which came out Vatican II about preserving Latin will cease in the Anglophone world as these new liturgies and the musical compositions for them take the Church by storm. I expect a whole generation of new, vibrant compositions in English for both the Ordinariate and the Novus Ordo of the Roman rite.

    Actually, there are two events which will be sapping energy from the neo-Ultramontanist and Tridentine Mass devotees’ totally unrealistic dream of merrily taking us all back to the days of the 1962 mass, with Benedict XVI as their agent. They are the publication this Advent of the new Roman missal, 3rd edition. Some critics have re-named it for it’s slap-dash editing as, “The Pell Missal”.

    Then there is the Ordinariate itself. It is going to sweep through the English Catholic Church’s spiritual and liturgical life, enriching it and beautifying it, like a firestorm.

    Latin church music isn’t going out of fashion any more than Bach, Handel, Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn have gone out of fashion. There will always be a place for it within the Roman Church and other churches as well. Timeless classics in music don’t die out. Hopefully, the neo-traddies in the Catholic Church who want their one size- fits- all 1962 mass imposed on the rest of us, will die out.

  • marie-claire

    Another Novus Ordo Mass in Latin throughout, including Scripture readings which are then re-read in English, is sung every Sunday at St James, Spanish Place, London W1 at 10.30am following on from the Tridentine Mass at 9.30 am (every week). St.James is a stunningly beautiful church, and the Mass is celebrated with much reverence and prayerful dignity. The music is always top-notch.

  • Diffal

    My expereince has been that Mass in latin(ordinary form) really shines when multinational events take place as apposed to Mass in english, spanish, french etc. Having a neutral language which reminds us that of the span of the church both geograpically and historically (its Catholicity if you like) is to my mind an important aspect of the Mass in latin that should not be over looked. Whether I go to Pluscarden( which is just down the road. Thank God) or lourdes where the creed is often said in latin before the Rosary, the line “Et in unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam” always stands out more in latin.

  • crouchback

    Errmmm…..sorry to fling a banana skin in to your parade….Notice how polite I’m trying to be there…!!!

    The Ordinariate may bring “something new” to the Church…..remind me how many people flock to the Anglican Church these days…..not many at all

    So there may be some more Artistic masses compared to the excuse for masses that gets served up in your average Vatican II desert parishes…..in fact if Gadaffi manages to escape Libya….he could hide out in most Catholic parishes were the congregations are so old and so few that nobody would notice…!!!.

    The Ordinariate are jumping from the disaster that is the Anglican church…..into the Disaster that is the Catholic church in England…….this time next year we’ll be wondering what the fuss was about…..and I don’t think there will be much change.

    The Bishops are worse than useless, the question that they will have to answer whether they like it or not is what are they going to do about their priests when they refuse to use the new Translation……or muck it about to suit their own ghastly tastes…..

    We traditionalists will not be dying out any time soon, Archbishop Lefebvre seen to that…..the Bishops blatantly refused to accept Summorum Pontificum, now they are faced with the second part of the Double Whammy the new Translation……I’ve no doubt that they will baulk at this as well…..the Third and knock out Whammy will be when they are told to “Shove it” by their own priests……and snivelling lay men….who long ago lost the Faith, most of whom are semi-house trained Protestants.

    In the new translation….has there been anything said about the Rubrics….????? I haven’t noticed anyone mention this.

  • Anonymous

    I’ve just skimmed the contributions below, and it is clear that the novus ordo has done its work. The alleged “faithful” have been duly protestantised, as was the stated aim of those who invented the new Mass. To think we have Catholics putting forward the very same arguments to oppose the use of Latin as Protestants used to make, is thought-provoking, to say the least. For the record, however, it is important to note that Latin continues to be the official language of the Church. This novus ordo vernacular experiment is doomed to failure, as Cardinal Ranjith has admitted – he gives it around 25 years at most before it finally disappears.

    However, the problems with the novus ordo are not limited to the use of the vernacular. Check out the following article, which details the surgery that took place to remove certain prayers from the Mass, with the express intention of making the Mass acceptable to Protestants by removing “barriers” – the key barrier being the entire concept of the Mass as the Sacrifice of Calvary offered by a sacrificing priest.
    http://www.catholictruthscotland.com/DanGrahamMassdifferences.pdf

  • crouchback

    You’re luck to be in London……nothing like that up here in Cumbria….so far we’ve had only one single Traditional Mass, which was quite well attended. We are to have this mass once / month. Grateful for small mercies.

  • Anonymous

    And hopefully, when we get a Pope who acts like a Pope and who obeys Our Lady, and after he has pronounced the Consecration of Russia to Our Lady, in accordance with her instructions, hopefully then you will come back and eat your words…

  • Anonymous

    Have you taken a look at the quality of priests “serving” us these days, Sugar Plum?

    “Barmy” doesn’t begin to cut it, my dear…

  • Leec

    How about having the Latin Mass said in the vernacular?

  • Jeannine

    “…suppose it was the sense of another world. Also I have to say the silence.”

    A well-prayed Novus Ordo in the vernacular achieves the same effect. There are many times in the Novus Ordo where silence is required for private prayer to our Lord. There are also many priests who do not realize this or refuse to follow proper protocol for whatever reason.

    I have attended a Traditional Mass. I understand & agree with many of the reasons why people love this form. I also understand what you say about a typical Novus Ordo Mass since I have attended many of those heart-wrenching liturgies.

    A major reason why the pope issued the motu proprio in 2007, is for the EF to positively influence the OF; ie, to eliminate the noise & make it most reverent. In my area I am seeing positive signs of change.Yet, I agree with Martin. God knows all so I bet He doesn’t care what language the liturgy uses as long as it is prayed w/sincere reverence.

    After yrs of attending an OF with lousy & childish music, noisy people in the pews, & with priests sometimes adding their own words to the prayers, (Thank God not the Epiclesis!), I finally found a parish who truly respects the Novus Ordo. I now have a “sense of another world” when I attend mass at my new-found parish.

  • Anonymous

    Oh, I don’t know…
    - BECAUSE NO-ONE UNDERSTANDS IT!

    If the church claims to spread the truth it cannot be done in a language that cannot be understood by the vast majority of the congregation. Translations are very well – but pointless – why put in a hurdle in the way of understanding and truth?

    A constant pandering to a tradition the impedes learning is not healthy. I am not in favour of the regular usage of latin in any masses on a regular basis. For the sake of tradition and history of the Church we should have some special masses, but any further influence then that I believe is unhelpful.

  • Anonymous

    There may be interest on the part of members of the congregation – this does not make it any more valuable as a practice.

    If the Church is interested in spreading truth – why should it add a needless barrier to understanding.

    If the Church is interested in spreading superstitions, mystery and misinformation – I can’t think of a better way.

    The tongue of the Church was or course first Aramaic or Hebrew – since these were the languages which Christ and the Apostles spoke. Hence the inclusion of words such as men, alleluia, hosanna and sabbaoth – which are of that origin.
    The mass was then told in Greek and then later Latin. But in the early Church, of which I am talking, it was said in the vernacular language – in order for its message to be Understood.

    The continuation of the mass in Latin was simply because much of the liturgy had already been established in that language. It was also useful, as it served as a universal language of communication through the Church.
    However, today we are in the fortunate situation where we have a universal language that is actually understood also – which would be English.
    So lets follow tradition and stick with the vernacular for the most-part please.

  • Tiggy.

    I agree that this is what the NO should do. Only it does not. Certainly not in in any Parishes around here, and there are 5 in my town.Its mostly a show of the Celebrants personality and some quite awful hymns. KUMBAYA!!!! Now it is unimaginable that this would be sung at a Latin Mass, EF or NO.
    I also feel that Latin gives us a sense of continuity with ages, and peoples past. After all our Church places great store on tradition. There has been a certain rupture in that in the last 40 years. It seems that rupture is gradually being healed.

  • http://ccfather.blogspot.com/ Ben Trovato

    Paulsays

    That sounds as though it’s so sensible, but in fact there is strong evidence to the contrary.

    All serious religions have a hieratic language: a language that sets worship and the sacred apart from the mundane and the everyday. The loss of that – along with the loss of the notion of the Church as a sacred place, and the sanctuary doubly so, has inflicted huge damage on the Catholic Faith.

    Further, the main purpose of the liturgy is not to spread the truth – that is done by other means – but to meet man’s need to adore.

    Treating the Mass as a School Assembly (Good Morning, Everyone! – Good Morning, Father…) has possibly done more to drive people away from the Church (and just look at the numbers) than anything else – not least priests, who became priests as they had a vocation to offer sacrifice on behalf of the people, not to lead them in banal songs.

    A constant pandering to popularity that impedes adoration is not healthy. There is a huge difference between what people want and what is good for them: if you have kids, consider their eating preferences…

    The Church, like a good mother, used to nourish us, and to help us grow to love what was good for us. With the Novus Ordo, as celebrated by some, it was as though we were fed a diet of sweeties and pop. And people love it, until they feel sick and their guts start to rot.

    Heigh ho, heigh ho, it’s off to Chartres I go: all the Masses on the pilgrimage will be in Latin and the thousands of pilgrims from all over Christendom will adore together. Keeps me sane…

  • Tiggy.

    The idea that a Mass is “Barmy” is indeed a very strange one. Though you are probably right about Priests formed in the 70 s and 80 s. This seems to be changing .Deo Gratias!

  • Diffal

    Thats what happens in most parishes. Or were you meaning the older form of the Mass?

  • J009hjg

    We have Novus Ordo Mass in Latin Once a month at our Parish and it is very well attended.

  • http://ccfather.blogspot.com/ Ben Trovato

    I didn’t see you there, Crouchback – sure I would have recognised you from that handsome photo…

  • Wayoto

    The London (Brompton) Oratory has a Novus Ordo Mass in Latin daily at 6pm, as well as a solemn Latin Novus Ordo Mass in Latin on Sunday at 11 am. A Tridentine Mass is also offered on Sunday and every weekday. .

  • crouchback

    An SSPX priest I talked to recently said there would be no problem with saying the mass in any language….provided that they were using the Traditional Mass…he even said they could work with the Novus Ordo lectionary. The SSPX will not work with the Novus Ordo mass, as far as I can see. For obvious reasons, it’s boring, it’s Protestant and it is a severe threat to cats. I’m no animal lover but if I were forced to attend the Novus Ordo, I’d need to get a cat and kick the living shit out of it after every mass, that’s how bad it is when your used to the Traditional Mass.

    The thing is most people who defend the Novus Ordo have virtually no experience of what they are talking about, you need to be a pensioner to remember the Traditional Mass in ordinary use…..how many pensioners can remember where they left their false teeth…..never mind a mass they last attended when they were just teenagers, and rebellious teenagers who where going to teach the world to Love……we can see how well they managed that …????…..and then they destroyed the Church into the bargain……bunch of losers…..!!!!

    Younger Novus Ordo types might have been to one or two Traditional Masses, but then take the “easy way out” and stick to what they have been programmed to accept. Especially if they are on diocesan liturgical dance troupes and the like.

    How many priests are learning the Traditional Mass, the Latin Mass Society has trained at least a couple of hundred over the last few years…..

    On the other hand how many Priests trained in the Traditional Mass, throw in the towel and say enough…!!! I’ll only ever say the Novus Ordo from now on…???…..not many….can any body tell us if they know any at all. I knew one priest, but he gave up the Faith completely…..ha has stopped saying any masses in any language.

  • crouchback

    Nonsense…..the “Silence” in the Traditional Mass is quite a funny thing when you look at it. There are no silences, the priest modulates his voice, till at the Canon if you are sitting even quite near the altar you can’t hear him…..but he isn’t silent. The laity are silent, some following the mass closely in their missals some bowed in prayer, some watching, but not using a missal and ….doing what…??? just watching. But everyone is actively participating in their own way. The Traditional Mass gives you the freedom to do this.

    In our parish recently the priest printed out an article from the Tablet….the gist of which was that in every mass there should be two periods of silence….I can’t remember when these are to be one after communion I’d guess, one after the Gospel..??….whatever. The fact that one of the major catholic media outlets prints something like this after 40 of the Novus Ordo speaks volumes…..no…..it shatters the silence…..in order to get people to try and shut up during mass…???

    Last week on EWTN The Journey Home with Marcus Grodi, I watched an English convert from Buddhism, this man is a Professor of Buddhist Philosophy or some thing like that…..he said…..”I was teaching silent Buddhist retreats for 20 years, teaching people how to Meditate…..problem was I couldn’t do it my self…??? all the time trying to be silent, my mind would fill with all sorts of wandering thoughts…. Silent Meditation, doesn’t work….it doesn’t exist. “…not the man’s exact words, but close enough.

    The same goes for “Periods of Silence” during the Novus Ordo…..they are nothing but periods of Posturing for the faux “Spiritual Guru’s” amongst us……seeing some drip, with his eyes closed, his hands joined in reverent “prayer”, his head lolling to one side……Haud on Son….Haud on…..I’ll away and strangle the *&%^$%£ cat….!!!! it’s enough to you sick.

    If you don’t believe me….have a look at the Cloud of Unknowing, there was a man who knew about real silence….and about the bloody idiots who posture and preen themselves during “mass”

    The Traditional Mass is an organic thing, everything works to help all the participants focus on lifting the heart and mind to God…..

    The Novus Ordo….is a mess, designed to scatter your attention….you stand up, sit down, kneel and stand up again 12 times in the space of a 25 minute ordinary mass, then you have a parade of readers, and another parade of Eucharistic Monsters, two silences..??? and maybe an inappropriate hymn or two, while the priest is shouting the mass through a micro phone at a virtually empty church….and then every body wanders about the church shaking hands …..peace be with you……what a disaster….

    I really must go and do terribly cruel things to some one’s cat….before I explode…..!!!!!!

  • Arthur

    We can hope that you are right about the approved liturgies for the Ordinariates. However, wherever there is a good musical tradition, I expect the singing of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin will be quite common practice in the Ordinariates!

  • Jeannine

    “…The same goes for “Periods of Silence” during the Novus Ordo…..they are nothing but periods of Posturing for the faux “Spiritual Guru’s” amongst us…” “…The Novus Ordo….is a mess, designed to scatter your attention….you stand up, sit down, kneel and stand up again 12 times in the space of a 25 minute ordinary mass, then you have a parade of readers, and another parade of Eucharistic Monsters, two silences..??…”

    Yes I agree. There are many parishes & their priests who are irreverent when praying the OF, probably because of ignorance, laziness, &/or carelessness.

    Looks to me you have only been exposed to a poorly practiced form of the Novus Ordo. Most of us have. Then some of us are fortunate to experience the correct protocol of the OF & realize all these yrs what we have been missing. I am 1 of those fortunate few.

    On the other hand, you also who seems to be 1 of the Novus Ordo ‘s biggest critics on this website. You obviously do not know nor understand the correct protocol of praying the Novus Ordo. Before criticizing this form (Maybe it’s the people who pray this form in an irreverent way that you’re disgusted with.) why don’t you read about it first. Try official documentation (GIRM or General Instruction of the Roman Missal) or books that have the Niblis Obstat & Imprimatur printed on the copyright pages. I will pray for you that the Lord will soften your heart.

  • crouchback

    Oh, I was there all right. I’m a master of disguise …..is that really an Onion Johnnie, or could it be Crouchback, but in a flash…I’m off. Where did he go people ask…???….look over there …it can’t be..??
    Admiral Yamamoto, wasn’t he shot down in the jungle. At the moment I’m preparing my most difficult disguise yet….Pinky….AND….Perky, both at the same time…!!!

    Though the Novus Ordo bongo’s might give Pinky away…..Perky can be quite ruthless you know…???

  • Anna Rose

    I agree. A return to the Latin Mass would herald a new dawn for many Catholic returners.

  • crouchback

    I’ve been back and forward over the last 30 odd years at Traditional Masses / Novus Ordo masses.

    1: The Traditional Mass is the best in every department, I’ve all ways held to that…even when I was years away from it.

    2: I’ve been to Novus Ordo masses said by people I regard as saints, most of these men are dead now, they had spent years / decades with the Traditional Mass, but out of obedience they said the Novus Ordo….Obedience, Archbishop Lefebvre has written….”Obedience, the Devils master stroke”….said by priests who were unquestionably trying to do what the Church intends a mass should be, the Novus Ordo is a valid mass…..BUT…. It is so protestant, so open to abuse….that if the priest is not on guard then it quickly melts away and becomes the vehicle for Frank Sinatra songs played at Funerals….which we had here, just a few weeks ago…..and a general boring thing where the priest has to “work” the crowd….he is facing them after all….then it becomes a complete waste of time….I didn’t go to mid mass again today…..just too upsetting…..I should be at mass on a daily basis…..but what’s the point…???? It would drive me to edge of sanity.

    75 % of the Catholics around here never cross the doors of the Church. The 1960′s promised a new Spring Time for the Church…..now Archbishop Kelly of Liverpool has to go to Belgium to find priests to rescue one of his own churches…..where are Liverpool priests willing to say the Traditional Mass and re awaken the church at New Brighton…???….

    Unfortunately the Priests in Liverpool seem to understand better than poor old me “the correct protocol of praying the Novus Ordo” as you put it…….and look what it is doing to the Church….

    The Novus Ordo should be held face down in a bucket of water…..and not let go until well after the struggling has stopped…..it is not fit for human consumption…..in my poor opinion.

  • USCatholic

    I don’t know about the UK, but in the US, after the introduction of the present (bad) English translation of the Novus Ordo, many bishops prohibited the use of Latin in the saying or singing of the Mass without special provision. Some dioceses allowed the use of Latin for the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei, but prohibited it for all other parts of the Mass. Only recently has Latin been reintroduced. In Philadelphia, for instance, one Sunday Mass per month at the Cathedral is sung in Latin, but all of the spoken parts — and the responsive sung parts — are all in English. We now have several parishes offering the Tridentine Mass in Latin on a regular basis.

  • http://ccfather.blogspot.com/ Ben Trovato

    I’ll look out for you both on Laetare Sunday then!

  • Lisa Kaiser

    Having a ritual language is wonderful. And like the author, do not understand why the Novus Ordo is not routinely said in Latin–semms like a perfect middle ground.

  • Ignatius_laconi1

    Alot of them have died off already. We call them the communion of Saints.

  • Wenner

    In the Anglican Use of the RC Church in the USA –over a quarter century old now — the three mature parishes I know personally in Texas ALL say at least the NO in Latin regularly, and these former Episcopalian / Anglican priests have deep appreciation for Latin and for Gregorian Chant which they incorporate along with the majestic Anglican Chant. No conflict, indeed, they seem to “get” the cultural point of Latin better than the Cradle Catholics. Since the rise of the AU — and now the Ordinariate — are the work of the Holy Spirit, do not be surprized that Latin is rediscovered as a fresh and rich aspect of Catholic culture by the younger generation under the Aegis of the Ordinariate. I speak as one who was asked to teach traditional Latin Hymns to the children of our AU Texas parish as a one-off, more as a “taste of ancient Catholic history”. To their parents’ astonishment, the children adored singing Latin hymns, so I taught them more. Then then I taught them the Missa de Angelis, and the the Requiem Mass, which they loved with a cheerful passion (!) Soon other children were showing up on the days I was teaching them to chant (by rote, a capella, the way I was taught 50 years ago, since I don’t read music). The pastor was really pleased that the kids liked singing Latin so much. If that happened once, I guarantee it will happen again –just let the kids hear some good recordings of hymns, provide them with words and translations, a little help pronouncing ecclesiastical Latin, and they’re singing lustily and going home and teaching plainchant to their little brothers and sisters. If God is for a thing, it’s gonna happen. And God likes kids singing Latin, even if their elders think it’s old hat. ;-)

  • http://spreadthyfragrance.blogspot.com/ Jackie Parkes

    Francis..what’s wrong with the Midlands? ie Birmingham!

  • http://www.leatherheadcatholics.org.uk Michael Masterson

    Why not compile a Missa Normativa Directory. You may begin with Leatherhead (Our Lady 7 St. Peter) Thurs. 8.0 PM.

  • http://www.leatherheadcatholics.org.uk Ray

    We DO have the Novus Ordo in Latin every week here in Leatherhead at the Church of Our Lady and St Peter – it’s every Thursday evening at 8.00pm. Do join us if you are ever in the area.