Debate: Is it ever right to advise someone not to become a Catholic?

How grotesque to try to spin the clip of St Josemaria as showing him to advise someone not to become a Catholic. Anyone who watches the clip will see that that was not his advice at all; rather, it’s pretty clear that he’s telling the girl to pursue her love of Christ and understanding of the Faith, but to wait until she is no longer a minor/under her parents’ authority before conversion.

St Josemaria was a staunch defender of the Catholic dogma that outside the Church, there is no salvation. As he wrote in his little book, “In Love With The Church”:

“Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salus. That is the continual warning of the Fathers. “Outside the Catholic Church you can find everything except salvation”, Saint Augustine admits. “You can have honour and sacraments: you can sing ‘alleluia’ and respond ‘amen’ You can uphold the gospel, have faith in the Father, in the Son, and in the Holy Spirit, and preach that faith. But never, except in the catholic Church, can you find salvation.” Nonetheless, as Pius XII lamented little more than twenty years ago, some reduce to an empty formula the need to pertain to the true Church in order to obtain eternal salvation. This dogma of faith is at the root of the Church’s co-redemptive activity. It spells out the Christian’s grave apostolic responsibility. Among Christ’s express commandments is the categorical one to incorporate ourselves in his Mystical Body by Baptism. And our Saviour not only commanded that everyone enter the Church, but also established that the Church be the means of salvation, without which no one can reach the kingdom of celestial glory. It is a matter of faith that anyone who does not belong to the Church will not be saved; and anyone who is not baptized does not enter the Church. Justification cannot take place after the promulgation of the gospel, without Baptism or its desire, the Council of Trent established.”

No:Yes: Next?

If someone has it in their heart to become a Catholic, no amount of contrary advice will stop them.

My father,who wanted to be as one with my mother when they married, asked to become a Catholic. However the priest could see his reasons were defective and advised my father to wait and if, in due course, he became convinced of the whole truth of the Catholic Church to then seek acceptance. My father never did, as he could not accept papal infallibility, though he never swerved from his underlying Christian faith, which he practiced within the CofE, and was very supportive of us children receiving the best Catholic upbringing. So, to answer the question, yes.

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. He has eternal life to gain; most other things – including well-ordered liturgies – pale in comparison.

(I like the idea that the Orthodox world is free of doctrinal dissent. Trying to get two Orthodox to agree on what constitutes their doctrine is hard enough!)

Firstly the Apostolic Catholic Church has always been “The Church” that is, the body of Christ. If you are not Catholic but still classify yourself as a Christian, you are still a part of “the Church” but from what i understand not in full communion with it from the Catholic point of view.

Secondly, what you are quoting as a means to justify your position is pretty weak and disappointing. I dont think anyone would have an issue with the scripture you have quoted and the fact that the individual was saved.

It wasnt as if he had had a chance (from what we are told) to join a church. The church wasnt really born until the coming of the Holy Spirit at Penticost. How could he join that which didnt exist?

It is likely that the man was a Jew and therefore a member of the Jewish convenant. He also had a face to face experience and conversion with Jesus that many Seekers are praying for today in order to believe,(although not in the same way). If Jesus says the man is going to be in paradise with him, who’s doubting that?

As for the Rituals and Rites and Repeated prayers, i am pretty sure your opinion is based on what you have heard rather than personnally investigated with anyone who is a convinced Catholic. Do you pray the Our Father? have you said it more than once? Were you any worse off for saying it or where you led into a deeper understanding. Stop talking rubbish and think about what you write.

There “is” only one huge Christian church and only one foundation which is Jesus Christ. This Church has alway been and always will be based on the preaching of the gospel as givenby the Apostles, and kept safe through the Holy Spirit, If you are following anything else then you need to rethink your position. (i only mention this because whilst you have knowledge of the scriptures you lack the ability to put the words in context). As such you may be leading people astray.

If this has offended you in tone, then please accept my appologies, it is just i get frustrated when people put forward enforced arguements that affect people as a whole but are based on folly. God Bless

Are you suggesting that the liturgical scandals and the false teachings of doctrine are intra ecclesiam and lead to salvation?

And being a former Protestant Charismatic Baptist i am fully aware of what you have walked into and the majority of viewpoints held within the various denominations. Whilst i can understand the view point that you do not “Need” any intercession other than Jesus, it would be stupid to reject it if it was on offer. The Jews themselves used to cry out and appeal to the merits of Father Abraham in times of trouble as if it would assist in their prayers to GOD the father. As an ex Catholic surely the arguement that if all believers are active in Heaven after physical death then their intercession is not to far a jump to accept? Surely you would be praying for your family if you could? As if to highlight the fact that we are active after death rather than soul sleep we have Jesus himself at the Transfiguration seeing Moses and Elijah did he not? they were fully aware of who Christ was and didnt seem that surprised from what we are told when they appeared to him in order to strenthen him and provide a witness to the apostles. In the book of revelation we also see the active intercession of the saints in heaven. Surely we can accept that we are active in heaven?

In addition, from what i have read from the apparitions of Mary, she constantly says..and im summing up the thought……that everything that she is offering is a gift from her son Jesus through her. It is not a gift that originates in her, she is leading you toward the same gift that she recieved from her son, salvation through faith in her son. To accept mary as the mother of God is to accept the Gospel of Jesus in that He is God’s Son, born of a Virgin, truely dying on the Cross and raising again. It even confirms penticost as Mary is either listed there or implied in the group of believers. Mary actually strengthens the claim of the Gospel does she not?

Even the Rosary is a proclamation of the Gospel, i never realised that before investigating the Catholic Church. Mary is much more than the protestants give her credit for:

The first believer in Jesus as the Messiah.
The only person to carry God the son within her womb in the history of the world.
The first to wipe his tears as a child.
The first along with Joseph to protect the Child and sacrifice their lively hood to move to protect him.
The first to instigate a miracle through her son.
The last person to leave her son at the Cross with John.
Among the first to discover Jesus had risen.
With the Apostles when the Holy Spirit was given
And (this is just a thought on my behalf) probably influencing the writing of John in regards to Jesus, having been taken into his home and under his protection. She would be an ideal source of truth would she not?

I would be interested to hear your other concerns, maybe we can talk them through as we have both probably seen them from different angles. God Bless.

The Ave Maria (Hail Mary) is a combination of what is written in the Gospels ‘Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou AMONGST women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.’

I understand that Protestants have these words in their New Testament, too.

This notion that Catholics (or Orthodox Christians) worshiping Mary is totally ridiculous.

I emphasised with capital letters the word AMONGST.

If Mary was a deity she would be above everything, not just women.

We don’t ask a deity to ‘pray for us’ – that would be farcical!

…and the following line in the Hail Mary is a prayer asking Mary to ‘PRAY FOR US sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen’ which was added by the Church.

It was Mary who turned to Christ at Cana and said to her Son: ‘They have no wine’.

When we ask her for a favour, she turns to her Son who then goes to the Father and pleads for us at His Right Hand. We could replace the word ‘wine’ with our own needs e.g. they have no jobs, they have poor health etc.

From the cross, Christ said to Mary: ‘Behold your son’ and to Saint John: ‘Behold your mother!’

When Christ was saying those things to Mary and St John, He said those words to US – Mary is OUR mother, the Mother of the Church.

When you were young, wouldn’t you talk to your mum about something you want and she’d say to you: ‘I’ll have a word with your dad.’? Then your dad might say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to what you want for whatever reason that he has a right to decide upon. She’s asked him because it’s best coming from her.

There are times in our life when what we want to ask for is best coming from someone else? To put a good word in? It’s not out of fear. Perhaps we get tongue-tied. Jesus, Mary and the saints are our friends and know our problems, joys and sorrows.

I do not intend to offend here as The Virgin Mother Mary is such a delicate subject to all Catholics, but it seems to me that you are putting far too much importance in her- even moreso than Christ himself had done in his lifetime on Earth.
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and
his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren
stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my
mother? and who are my brethren?

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,
Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven,
the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew Ch 12)

The whole blessed virgin thing doesn’t seem to be so important to Jesus in this case, does it?

I see no suggestion that the person in question was out for a good time. It is not just of you to suggest it. Suspicious minds, Father, suspicious minds…….

Well, if your father wasn´t convinced of the truth of catholicism, no amount of external conversion could make him a catholic. I think your case is a case apart, no?

Quite so, sadly.

Well, let’s not forget that James, the brother of Jesus, did actually participate in Christ’s ministry and was accounted as having been executed for the witness of Christ. Though information is scant it is generally accepted as such.
As any good Catholic would, you tend to see Mary through rose-colored-glasses when her relationship with Jesus was actually quite contentious at times, such as in John Ch 2:

And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

Clearly, aside from knowing that he was born of divine origins, Mary understood Jesus to have supernatural powers, but to ask The Lord to provide a service for a wedding like he was somekind of magic genie kinda lowers Mary’s image somewhat. Jesus himself is a little peeved at her for suggesting it, too.
So, “blessed art though amongst women?” Sure, but not divine and certainly not on the nbest of terms with her own son.

BBB, good to hear from you again.
Not to sound like you keep using scripture out of context, you are now arguing that Mary knew that Jesus had supernatural powers at the time he changed water into wine????

I find your comment amazing, this was the FIRST miracle that Jesus EVER performed. How do you understand that mary knew he could perform the impossible?

Note that this was how Jesus’s disciples started to put their faith in him. This was new.

It was likely that she meant for him to sort out the situation in a perfectly normal way, i.e buy/get/request some more. Jesus as always often took normal speech and saw within it and teach through it the spiritual.

Id be interested to see how you can argue otherwise.

You also take the Woman title out of context here, it was a title of honour such as in “Good Woman”.

Who is calling Mary Divine (god/godess) by the way? She was a Jewish girl, no Catholic that i am aware of says she is divine. Please provide evidence from an authentic Catholic source if possible? That would be non trinitarian and totally wrong.

Nearly forgot, i have no issue with James being refered to as the brother of Jesus, he was after all his step brother through Joseph. AND before we start a Yes he was No he wasnt arguement. What seals it for me was that at the time of his crucification jesus handed mary over to John. He couldnt and wouldnt have done this if James had been her Flesh and Blood son, it wouldnt have been right (my opinion).

I look forward to hearing

1. Because they will not sin mortally and need a priest to absolve them since they surely had perfect contrition
2. Because it is not a humongous grace to receive Jesus in the form of bread
3. Because it is not nice to have last rites
4. Because they can stay in schism when they know Christ founded the Catholic Church and that’s okay with God.
5. Because they want to deny Christ and the trueness of His Church in front of others

….this is all the opposite obviously.

Warning: A lot of Protestant spam below.

If you hate the person it’s worldly (not religiously) right to want them have a higher chance of damnation. They can go around unbaptized or in mortal sin with only imperfect contrition and if you hate them that’s wonderful. It will make it so you don’t have to talk to them in heaven.

That said “all it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to go nothing.”