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Fatima conspiracy theories are damaging the Church

There are enough scandals for Catholics to worry about: no need to waste time on crackpot fantasies

By on Monday, 27 June 2011

Sister Lucia, who died in 2005 at the age of 97, was the oldest of three children who received apparitions of the Virgin Mary at Fatima (CNS photo)

Sister Lucia, who died in 2005 at the age of 97, was the oldest of three children who received apparitions of the Virgin Mary at Fatima (CNS photo)

As William Oddie has pointed out in his blog explaining the reasons for the collapse of the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (PEEP) Conference, some very dodgy elements have lately attached themselves to the campaign long and bravely fought by Daphne McLeod to restore proper catechesis in Catholic schools. Masonic plots? Third Secret of Fatima skulduggery? You name it, they believe it. This is very sad, but not surprising. “Ubi Petrus, ibi Ecclesia” is what PEEP is or should be about; when you reject “Petrus” – in this case, Pope Benedict XVI – you end up in a church of your own making.

It should be emphasised that although all the Third Secret Mafiosi seem to be traditionalists, not all traditionalists are members of the Third Secret Mafiosi. The extreme element gives a bad name to all those Catholics who love and are loyal to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass but who are not remotely conspiracy-minded.

Not wanting to sink into the morass of lies, forgeries, secrets and Judaeo-Masonic plots which abound on certain websites, but keen to know the truth about the “Third Secret of Fatima” (and the consecration of Russia which is linked to it) I applied to Timothy Tindal-Robertson, who has himself written an excellent book on the subject: Fatima, Russia and Pope John Paul II, published by Gracewing. I am indebted to him for the following information:

After the consecration of Russia of March 25 1984, Sister Lucia, the sole surviving seer of Fatima, was visited by the Apostolic Nuncio who asked her, “Is Russia now consecrated?” “Yes. Now it is,” she answered. This report is taken from an interview with Sister Lucia published in Fatima Family Messenger (Oct-Dec 1989, p7), written by Fr Robert Fox, the American priest authority on the subject of Fatima.

On November 8 1989, Sister Lucia sent a letter to Pope John Paul II in which she confirmed that his consecration of March 25 1984 “was done as Our Lady requested.” This is quoted in Fatima in Lucia’s Own Words, July 2007, p. 124, note ii.

In the issue of January 9 2002 of the English edition of L’Osservatore Romano, there is a report on page 7 of Archbishop Bertone’s conversation with Sister Lucia on November 17 2001 at her Carmelite convent in Coimbra. The archbishop asked her: “What have you to say about the stubborn assertions of Fr Gruner, who has been collecting signatures asking the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary at last, as this has never been done?” Sister Lucia replied: “I have already said that the consecration desired by Our Lady was made in 1984 and has been accepted in heaven.”

Fr Nicholas Gruner, for those who have not heard of him, has devoted his life to running an organisation that attempts to prove a massive Vatican cover-up concerning Fatima. Mr Tindal-Robertson points out that it is noteworthy that on Fr Gruner’s website, despite a wide range of books mentioned, there is no reference at all to Sister Lucia’s own account of the apparitions: Fatima in Lucia’s Own Words. Why does he ignore this essential text? Because the seer’s book conclusively refutes his allegations.

Curiously, the whole text of the third part of the secret of Fatima, published by the CDF on June 26 2000, with many supporting documents, is also missing from Fr Gruner’s website. Also missing is the knowledge that this document is available in full in Sister Lucia’s own book, cited above, on pp. 199-233. In effect, Fr Gruner rejects the testimony of Sister Lucia, Cardinal Bertone and also the present Pope, who, as Cardinal Ratzinger, published the whole text when he was president of the CDF.

None of this would matter if thousands of people had not been led into error and confusion by Fr Gruner’s activities. More importantly, the teaching authority of the Church concerning the revelations of Fatima is being undermined. The Holy Father himself is accused of dishonesty. This is a very grave matter. Surely there are enough real scandals in the Church in this country which Catholics need to address, and which Daphne McLeod has addressed so valiantly in the past, without falling for these conspiracy theories and crackpot fantasies?

  • Nishant Jeyaraj

    She answers those who have voiced a doubt that some part of
    the ‘third secret’ might not have been revealed: “Everything has
    been published, there are no more secrets.” To those who
    are talking and writing about new revelations, she says: “There is not a
    grain of truth in them. If I had had new revelations, I would not have spoken
    of them to anyone, but would have told them directly to the Holy Father!”.

     

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdflucia.htm

     

    On May 13, 1982, His Holiness John Paul II made the
    Consecration. I was asked if it was made. I responded “NO.” It was
    not made in union with all the bishops of the world.

    Then this same Supreme Pontiff, John Paul II wrote to all
    the bishops of the world asking them to unite with him. He sent for the statute
    of Our Lady of Fátima — the one from the little Chapel to be taken to Rome and
    on March 25, 1984 – publicly – with the bishops who wanted to unite with His
    Holiness, made the Consecration as Our Lady requested. They then asked me if it
    was made as Our Lady requested, and I said, “YES.” Now it was made.

     

    Cardinal Ratzinger’s reflection at the end of his comment
    on the third part of the “secret” is very relevant:

     

    Sr Lucia answers: “It is not true. How could I pray
    during the day if I did not rest at night?

     

    http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/Fatima1984.htm

    SJ,

    Let me briefly respond to all that has been said here.

    1. The burden of proof is not on me to disprove a conspiracy theory.
    2. Every conspiracy theorist claims such “facts”. I cannot disprove
    moon-landing deniers either, but I can show that there are some others who have
    taken the effort.
    3. It is both a conspiracy and a theory, because it denies both the official
    statement of the Church and the statements of Sr.Lucia as confirmed by multiple
    witnesses.

    Again, dissent from a Church judgment on a private revelation is never allowed.
    We only believe in any private revelation on the authority of the Church’
    statement that it is “worthy of credence”. This is not de fide, and
    moreover, it is logically inconsistent after this to deny the interpretation of
    the  Church’ based on the same message which was authenticated by the
    Church in the first place.

    Liam,

    According to EWTN, the Pope did say he was going to make the consecration in
    spiritual union with the Bishops before doing it.

    Petrus,

    4. The whole world, Russai included, was consecrated. All previous
    consecrations mentioned Russia by name, but they were not accepted because
    the important thing was a public consecration in union with Bishops, more
    important than the name. It is your private interpretation that Russia need to
    be mentioned. The Church, Sr.Lucia and others disagree. The consecration of the
    world, and the enlightenment of Russia through it are sufficient.

    5. Our Lady didn’t say this conversion would happen 5
    minutes later, did she? The Immaculate Heart will triumph, but “in the end”.
    This also answers your third claim.

    Martyjo,

    6. It’s true that western countries are increasingly
    secularist, anti-Christian and socialist, but I think the fall of Communism is
    nonetheless a demonstration of Heaven’s power and a forerunner the wrath to
    come on the godless. I don’t think it was pre-planned by them though, even though
    I grant it is possible, the Communists may have taken it in their stride and
    are biding their time.

    2. There is the further possibility that the conversion of
    Russia means the return of the Russian Orthodox Church to the Catholic Church,
    which seems much more likely now than 25 years ago, especially with Patriarch
    Kirill, who is said to be more open to Rome.

    8. I think the 100 years thing is compelling. A lot happened
    in the 100 years from 1884 to 1984, and this seems to make sense. Again, Our
    Lady did not say we would see peace magically 5 minutes later.

    God bless.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, Signor, that article can be read here in PDF format. 

    http://www.renewamerica.com/images/columns/081210abbott.pdf

    It is a stunning (in the truest sense of that word) read; and, as you say, the fact that it appeared in Inside the Vatican is quite telling. Really, one does not know what to think. Between the quite unpleasant ad-hominem extreme position of the likes of Dr Oddie and Francis Phillips on one side and the occasionally odd things that Fr Kramer says on the other, one merely craves some middle ground sense and calm. Whilst holding to their positions of disagreement, the likes of Nicholas Bellord, MartyJo, Editor CT et al on here fulfil those positions, I’d say, very admirably. 

    It may be some time before I can do so, but one thing the last few weeks has taught me is that I need to seriously sit down and study the whole Fatima subject with an objective mind in order to come to my own reasoned conclusions. In fact, I think I need to make time.Meantime some people – who really should know better – who are calling others “fanatics” and “quite mad” just doesn’t help. Not when the subject is so serious.At the very least, the Vatican needs to issue a clarification here. The very fact that so many people (rightly or wrongly) seem to be able to punch so many holes into the official 2000 announcement is enough on its own to merit such a clarification (e.g. I thought Summorum Pontificum was clear enough but it didn’t stop Universae Ecclesiae being published). The 2000 announcement should have been water-tight. It should have anticipated various FAQs. The upcoming centenary seems a good and timely moment for the Vatican to issue such a clarification.It’s surely something that all sides in this sorry, sorry debate should welcome.

  • James H

    And if you look to my rear, ladies and gentlemen, you will see a common or garden troll…

  • http://www.charlesfrith.com charlesfrith

    Looking at rears is the point of entry for priestly buggering of young children. Freudian slip Copernicus? As for common troll? I’m using my full real name. It’s you the garden variety delusional debunker who is working anonymously.

  • Anonymous

    Oh! William!  Is that a conspiracy theory?  ‘Fanatics organise blog vote rigging’!!!  Look, none of the Catholics I know are ‘fanatical’ about anything, but many I know do feel strongly that this issue is very important, and they can see for themselves that there are gaping holes and contradictions in some of the ‘official’ accounts released so far – particularly by Cardinal Bertone.  I have given links to irrefutable evidence if you care to check them out.  But in all the things I’ve read – and my reading on this issue has been extensive over the last twenty years, on both sides of the debate - I don’t think anyone has called Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI a liar.  In fact, some Fatima publications have made a great deal of the fact that Pope John Paul II himself admitted immediately after doing the 1984 Consecration, that Our Lady was still ‘awaiting’ it.  I seem to recall that this was published in L’Osservatore Romano – hardly a ‘Grunerite’ publication.  Also, during his recent pilgrimage to Fatima, Pope Benedict XVI publicly contradicted the previous ‘official’ assertion that Fatima belonged to the past.  Many will prefer to continue to read both sides of the debate and keep an open mind on the matter.  Barracking and name-calling is unhelpful and not about to convince anyone of anything.  This whole issue may not be as cut and dried as you seem to think it is.   Also, please see my other comment.  Are you dismissing ‘Inside the Vatican’ magazine as fanatics?

  • Liam

    I have written ‘apparent’ and that is precisely what I meant, James. Not to be uncharitable, but all of the other nuances that you have laboured to construe from my post are entirely of your own invention. God bless you.

  • http://www.catholictruthscotland.com EditorCT

     Petrus, I am, indeed, very interested in your suggestion of a debate between Cathedralman and my unworthy self. Absolutely.

    I think I can safely assume our Treasurer’s agreement when I say that, if Cathedralman agrees to such a debate, Catholic Truth will host it.  We’ll pay for the venue and we’ll even throw in tea and biscuits, for good measure.

    Brilliant idea. Thanks for suggesting it, Petrus. I love debates.

    Let’s see if Cathedralman is willing – I do hope so.

  • http://www.catholictruthscotland.com EditorCT

    Brilliant – give us all a chance to meet.  Let’s hope W Oddie and Francis Phillips come along as well – we could have a ceilidh afterwards as well!  What FUN we could have. I’m really excited. 

    I should get out more.

  • Liam

    Yes, Tim, we ought trust the word of Sr. Lucia. Unfortunately she was silenced by ecclesiastical fiat circa 1959. Why silenced? I do not know and neither do you. Why silenced until her death (even after 1984)? I do not know and neither do you.
    I think it wholly counter-intuitive to believe the apparent collapse of the Soviet Union is ipso facto proof that the Consecration was done in 1984. Perhaps I was a judge for too long, but I do not see a convincing case that the Consecration was made. 
    If it was; however, then Glory be to God and I shall not suffer for my obtuseness come the Triumph. If it was not done, as I suspect, then Glory be to God and may He sustain all of us with the necessary grace and vigour to persevere. 
    God bless you, Tim.

  • Anonymous

    Nishant, again I say, please read this book http://www.secretstillhidden/book.html

  • Anonymous

    Your first point; There are other sufficiently explanatory causal factors,
    I will answer in this manner. Thank you for your itemized list (although be it with a slight shortfall) of what Our Lady of Fatima called the ERRORS OF RUSSIA.
    One little point; in that list you state the animosity which Communism had for the Church. Are you really trying to suggest Communism has had a change of heart?
    The first thing to understand about communism is its primary objectives which are Atheism, Secularism, Socialism and Artificial Internationalism. To achieve these goals various methods have been used. One of the methods used, is to undermine all religious and moral teaching through the education system, seemingly innocuous social and civil rights. Unfortunately a lot of people are unaware of the hidden agendas, which is to debase society itself through the promotion of these so called rights. Before you answer this post I strongly recommend you research the book ‘The Dumbing Down of America’ by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt (This is not from the Fatima perspective). I would urge you watch these interviews on the links provided.
     http://www.youtube.com/user/LibertyTruthJustice#p/u/28/9RTSZH2xDV4
    http://www.youtube.com/user/LibertyTruthJustice#p/u/1/WULTN9IS8FQ
    Your next point on the growth of Catholic Orders, size of the Church.
    Let us again look at the warning of Pope Pius X11
    “I am worried by the Blessed Virgins messages to Lucia of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the faith in her liturgy, theology and her soul. I hear all around me innovators who wish to destroy sacred chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.
    A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?
    Ignoring the warning of Our Lady through Pope Pius X11 has resulted in the exodus of gigantic numbers of Catholics out of the Church and out of the Faith.
    Your statement “That sounds like mega church logic” also requires you to examine what is really going on.
    Vatican 2 brought in the new error of Ecumenism. The Church has always taught that there is only one true Faith, one true Church outside of which there is no salvation. The purpose of Catholic churchmen and missionaries was to go forth, teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and bringing them in to the one Ecclesia that our Lord established. But with the Vatican Council’s new Ecumenism they adopted a different form of Church oneness and Church unity that you can trace it point by point, that it came actually from the Protestant World Council of Churches. This is where your MEGACHURCH fits in, which is a stepping stone to the final goal of a ONE WORLD CHURCH.
    As to your Better and smaller Church this is exactly what is happening, but to be a part of that you must be in the Faith that Our Lord handed on the Apostles and handed down unchanged through the ages by the Church. Not immersed in the Modern Liberal and often Heretical Theology that has abounded since Vatican 2.
    Jesus answered them and said “My doctrine is not mine but His that sent me.” (John 7:16).
    Jesus said to them “Amen, Amen I say to you, the Son cannot do anything of himself, but what He seeth the Father doing: for what things soever He doth, these the Son also doth in like manner.”  (John 5:19)
    Likewise, Our Lord hands the Faith down to us a Tradition through those of our lawful superiors who are and must be
     Obedient to That Faith!
    Jesus lifting His eyes to the Father in Heaven said “Because the words which thou gavest to me, I have given to them.” (John 17:8)
    Your reference to bilge rats and mutinous traitors is very apt especially when everyone knows bilge rats and mutinous traitors do not leave the ship but stay onboard and usurp the lawful authority!
    To give you a small example of this at Vatican 2
    In the course of an interview Fr. Malichi Martin in 1992 related a truly horrifying incident. While secretary to Cardinal Augustin Bea at the Vatican in the 1960s he tells how the Cardinal returned to the office one day very stressed, trembling and perspiring. When Fr. Martin asked what was wrong Cardinal Bea replied I have just been listening to a conversation between two theologians. When it was suggested to theologian Hans Kung that they would have to leave the Church, he retorted “No No! In the 16th century with the Protestants that’s what we did. This time we are going to stay inside the Church and we are going to change it!”
    Finally let us deal with your statement; as to not deserting or blaming the Church.
    I do not blame or desert the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ. I stand and defend this one true Church against all enemies be they within or without, and the enemy within is always the most dangerous.
    “Where there is a proximate danger to the Faith, prelates must be rebuked, even publicly, by subjects. Thus Saint Paul who was subject to Saint Peter, rebuked him publicly” Saint Thomas Aquinas, commentary on Galatians 2 :14.
    I will not be the one that hid my 1 talent and watched as the enemy ransacked and pillaged!
    And to finish up; if you read my post again, you will see that nowhere do I personally attack the Church and neither do any of those I quote; Our Lady, Sister Lucia, Pope Pius 12, Pope John Paul 2, Pope Benedict 16, Our Lord through Matthew 7:16,17,18,19,20.
    Pray the Rosary!
    Do the Communion of the Five First Saturdays in Reparation for Blasphemies against Our Lady!

  • Anonymous

    Ah! Mr. Oddie; or should I address you as Comrade Oddie.
    The manner of your attack on me has all the hallmarks of someone that is working to an agenda. Your assertions as to my mental state is always the first attack of the Communists on religious, dissidents or someone that they just need to get out of the way without trial or jury.
    As regards my post I hope you have noticed I had little to say. I just joined the Dots as to what Our Lady, Sister Lucia, Pope Pius 12, Pope John Paul 2, Pope Benedict 16, Our Lord through Matthew 7:16,17,18,19,20 said on the matters in hand.
    Do you include those I quoted in your Mad! Mad! Mad! Rant as well.
    God Bless Mr. Oddie.
    Pray the Rosary!
    Do the Communion of the Five First Saturdays in Reparation for Blasphemies against Our Lady!

  • Anonymous

    Thanks very much for that link Gregory and for your measured response.  It will be good for others to go in and read that article.  Look, like you I don’t 100% agree with every word that comes from the Fatima Network organisation, for example, Fr Gruner once made some comments about the ‘messages’ of the alleged ‘locutionist’ Don Stefano Gobbi that I didn’t agree with at all.  We don’t have to agree with everything they say – but having said that, I think they are on the right track about the Consecration and Secret issues and they have clearly unearthed some glaring contradictions in ‘official’ output on Fatima.  I was particularly impressed by the information in Christopher Ferrara’s book http://www.secretstillhidden.com/book.html    I hope that your study is fruitful. 
    God bless
    SJ

  • Buddy

    Francis, a simple question for you, if as you say and I quote, “surely there are enough real scandals in the Church in this country which Catholics need to address”, should the Church not be scandal free if the Consecration is done? I rest my case.

  • Anonymous

    Hear, Hear!  Well put Nishant Jeyaraj.

  • Anonymous

    Over to you Cathedralman!!!!  I’m looking up flights to Scotland as we speak!!!

  • Anonymous

    Perhaps you would be good enough to present evidence of anyone calling either Pope a liar?

    As far as I’m aware, the general feeling amongst Fatima experts is that the Popes you mention, having adopted the theory of Fr. Dhanis S.J., believe that what they have revealed thus far is the entire “authentic” Third Secret of Fatima. They reject the text part of that Secret on the basis of Fr. Dhanis’ belief that Sister Lucy invented it in her pious imagination. Hence, they don’t think themselves to be lying at all when they say that the authentic Third Secret is fully revealed. I’m not aware of anyone saying that the Popes have wilfully lied.

    I think you need to be a little less rash in your judgments, especially where the reputations of priests are concerned, and perhaps a little less nasty towards those who actually do present objective evidence to back their claims.

  • Anonymous

    Your first point; There are other sufficiently explanatory causal factors,I will answer in this manner. Thank you for your itemized list (although be it with a slight shortfall) of what Our Lady of Fatima called the ERRORS OF RUSSIA.One little point; in that list you state the animosity which Communism had for the Church. Are you really trying to suggest Communism has had a change of heart? The first thing to understand about communism is its primary objectives which are Atheism, Secularism, Socialism and Artificial Internationalism. To achieve these goals various methods have been used. One of the methods used, is to undermine all religious and moral teaching through the education system, seemingly innocuous social and civil rights. Unfortunately a lot of people are unaware of the hidden agendas, which is to debase society itself through the promotion of these so called rights. Before you answer this post I strongly recommend you research the book ‘The Dumbing Down of America’ by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt (This is not from the Fatima perspective). I would urge you watch these interviews on the links provided. http://www.youtube.com/user/Li…http://www.youtube.com/user/Li…Your next point on the growth of Catholic Orders, size of the Church.Let us again look at the warning of Pope Pius X11 “I am worried by the Blessed Virgins messages to Lucia of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the faith in her liturgy, theology and her soul. I hear all around me innovators who wish to destroy sacred chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past. A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?Ignoring the warning of Our Lady through Pope Pius X11 has resulted in the exodus of gigantic numbers of Catholics out of the Church and out of the Faith. Your statement “That sounds like mega church logic” also requires you to examine what is really going on.Vatican 2 brought in the new error of Ecumenism. The Church has always taught that there is only one true Faith, one true Church outside of which there is no salvation. The purpose of Catholic churchmen and missionaries was to go forth, teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and bringing them in to the one Ecclesia that our Lord established. But with the Vatican Council’s new Ecumenism they adopted a different form of Church oneness and Church unity that you can trace it point by point, that it came actually from the Protestant World Council of Churches. This is where your MEGACHURCH fits in, which is a stepping stone to the final goal of a ONE WORLD CHURCH.As to your Better and smaller Church this is exactly what is happening, but to be a part of that you must be in the Faith that Our Lord handed on the Apostles and handed down unchanged through the ages by the Church. Not immersed in the Modern Liberal and often Heretical Theology that has abounded since Vatican 2.Jesus answered them and said “My doctrine is not mine but His that sent me.” (John 7:16).Jesus said to them “Amen, Amen I say to you, the Son cannot do anything of himself, but what He seeth the Father doing: for what things soever He doth, these the Son also doth in like manner.”  (John 5:19)Likewise, Our Lord hands the Faith down to us a Tradition through those of our lawful superiors who are and must be Obedient to That Faith!Jesus lifting His eyes to the Father in Heaven said “Because the words which thou gavest to me, I have given to them.” (John 17:8)Your reference to bilge rats and mutinous traitors is very apt especially when everyone knows bilge rats and mutinous traitors do not leave the ship but stay onboard and usurp the lawful authority!To give you a small example of this at Vatican 2In the course of an interview Fr. Malichi Martin in 1992 related a truly horrifying incident. While secretary to Cardinal Augustin Bea at the Vatican in the 1960s he tells how the Cardinal returned to the office one day very stressed, trembling and perspiring. When Fr. Martin asked what was wrong Cardinal Bea replied I have just been listening to a conversation between two theologians. When it was suggested to theologian Hans Kung that they would have to leave the Church, he retorted “No No! In the 16th century with the Protestants that’s what we did. This time we are going to stay inside the Church and we are going to change it!”Finally let us deal with your statement; as to not deserting or blaming the Church. I do not blame or desert the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ. I stand and defend this one true Church against all enemies be they within or without, and the enemy within is always the most dangerous. “Where there is a proximate danger to the Faith, prelates must be rebuked, even publicly, by subjects. Thus Saint Paul who was subject to Saint Peter, rebuked him publicly” Saint Thomas Aquinas, commentary on Galatians 2 :14.I will not be the one that hid my 1 talent and watched as the enemy ransacked and pillaged! And to finish up; if you read my post again, you will see that nowhere do I personally attack the Church and neither do any of those I quote; Our Lady, Sister Lucia, Pope Pius 12, Pope John Paul 2, Pope Benedict 16, Our Lord through Matthew 7:16,17,18,19,20.Pray the Rosary!Do the Communion of the Five First Saturdays in Reparation for Blasphemies against Our Lady!

  • Anonymous

    I completely agree, but would add defending the faith to your list.

  • Anonymous

    Ah! Mr. Oddie; or should I address you as Comrade Oddie. The manner of your attack on me has all the hallmarks of someone that is working to an agenda. Your assertions as to my mental state is always the first attack of the Communists on religious, dissidents or someone that they just need to get out of the way without trial or jury.
    As regards my post I hope you have noticed I had little to say. I just joined the Dots as to what Our Lady, Sister Lucia, Pope Pius 12, Pope John Paul 2, Pope Benedict 16, Our Lord through Matthew 7:16,17,18,19,20 said on the matters in hand.
    Do you include those I quoted in your Mad! Mad! Mad! Rant as well.
    God Bless Mr. Oddie.   
    Pray the Rosary!
    Do the Communion of the Five First Saturdays in Reparation for Blasphemies against Our Lady!

  • Anonymous

    Do you want to honour Our Lady and help to bring about the triumph of her Immaculate Heart? I’m sure you do. So, yes, pray the rosary, get clothed and enrolled in the Brown Scapular, do the five First Saturday’s devotion of reparation and petition the Holy See to make the public and solemn consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart. I believe some five million souls have alread petitioned the Pope to do this.

  • Anonymous

    And I’ll bet they are also appalled by a Pope kissing the Koran and gathering all the world’s religions together in Assisi, during which scandal the Bhuddists worshipped their idol in the Basilica of St. Francis, which had been placed atop a tabernacle. For that one gets beatified. For questioning the silencing of the text of Fatima’s Third Secret one gets badgered.

    The present Holy Father advocates separation of Church and State. Do I believe him to be right? No, he’s wrong and his predecessors tell us why in their Encyclicals. The Holy Father also tells us that the OF and EF of Mass are essentially two forms of the same rite. Is he correct? Only if you accept that Thomas Aquinas and Thomas Cranmer are both Angelic Doctors of the Church!

    The Pope is sometimes infallible, not at all times impeccable. Pope do err, and have erred.

  • Anonymous

    Bring your brolly, and maybe a suit of armour!!

  • Anonymous

    How can we have evils in our time if the consecration is done as you insist? Our Lady specifically said that Russia would be converted and the world would be given a time of peace following the consecration. Where is the conversion of Russia? Where is the peace? Where is your common sense?

  • Anonymous

    Why great and why timely?

  • Anonymous

    Can I be ref?

  • Anonymous

    Only if you promise to allow lots and lots of serious kicking and punching below the belt. It is Scotland, after all!!

  • http://www.catholictruthscotland.com EditorCT

     Cathedralman kick and punch below the belt?  You cannot be serious!

  • Anonymous

    Certamente!
    Nessun problema!  I’m looking forward to seeing my first real-life “Glesga Kiss”.  Further information below.  Don’t worry Cathedralman, I’m a qualified First Aider. 
    http://www.angelfire.com/folk/glesga_kiss/What%20is%20a%20Glesga%20Kiss.htm

  • Anonymous

    No, I’m sure he wouldn’t!!!!!!! I think he’d give you a big hug, and then probably jab you with a poison-tipped brolly on the way out the door.

  • Anonymous

    Ah! The old Glesga Kiss!

    In Europe they kiss cheeks. In England they give hugs. In Alaska they rub noses. In Glasgow they lunge their foreheads forcibly onto the bridge of your nose, and that’s just the women. Ah yes, a hardy people indeed!

  • Parasum

    That’s a nifty non-answer, at any rate. Maybe, if you a have a few seconds to spare, you can read the rest of the post, which explains the comment.

  • Parasum

    I think it’s been dropping for several years. Such scandals are not exactly new – they only seem so, because people are not used  to thinking of the clergy as scoundrels: we’ve been spoiled by 200-400 years of (relatively) well-behaved clergy.

  • Parasum

    Well, she has no authority in the Church; the bishops do. So if the Pope, who is a bishop, decides to read it at some other time, that is his decision; not hers. Besides, a Pope is unmistakably real – but an apparition is not unmistakable; it’s much more intangible, however convincingly real it may be for those receiving it. The Saints in Heaven have no authority in the running of the Church – not even Our Lady.  

  • Anonymous

    The ‘she’ and ‘her’ you refer to so off-handedly is the Mother of God, the Mother of the Church and our Blessed Mother.  Show some respect.   Disgraceful.

  • Petrus

      Come on, William.  You can’t really think that I get on the phone or email to others and say “Oh we must all get on to the Catholic Herald blog and get more likes than the liberals!”  Do you really think that?  And you call us conspiracy theorists! 

    What has happened to your charity, William.  You must always resort to name calling.  A typical tactic by a liberal Modernists, but usually journalist try to disguise it.  Disappointing.

    Tell me this: is Mother Angelica a fanatic?  Why do I ask this?  Because when “Once upon a time in Ratzinger and Bertone land” was released on 26th June 2000, Mother Angelica said:

    ” As for the Secret, well I happen to be one of those individuals who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing. I told ya! I mean, you have the right to your own opinion, don’t you, Father? There, you know, that’s my opinion. Because I think it’s scary.”

  • Petrus

    Cathedralman has gone quiet!!!

    Editor – I’ll do some homebaking.  It’s going to be a right terr at the ferr!!

  • Mary@42

    Where has the entire Catholic World been????? “The Third Secret of Fatima”, and indeed the entire Fatima Story, was Officially released by the Holy See to the Universal Catholic Church on 13th May, 2011.  This was in commemoration of the 50th Anniversary of the attempted Assassination  of Blessed Pope John Paul II and the 94th Anniversary of the 1st Fatima Apparition on 13th May 1917. Anyone interested in the Truth can read the entire Fatima documents, typewritten and  handwritten, Sr. Lucia’s communications with the Holy See on the Vatican Website, Vatican.va

    The role this Holy Pope played in the collapse of the Communist Regime and his subsequent attempted Assassination is the fulfillment of “The 3rd Secret of Fatima”.  Jesus Himself, in 1931, stated the role this “Spark” from Poland would play in fulfilling His Will – not only of demolishing the Communist Regine – but also of promulgating the Feast of the Divine Mercy on the Sunday after Easter to St. Faustina Kowalska, His Secretary and Eucharistic Apostle of the Divine Mercy.  Blessed Pope John Paul II fulfilled Christ’s Will in Year 2000 when he also canonized St. Faustina as the 1st Saint of the 3rd  Millennium.

    It is a high time, my Beloved Catholics – the Flock of Jesus Christ – we stopped allowing Satan to cause divisions and confusions in our Holy Mother Church and obeyed with respect the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church and accord the Holy Father, the Successor of St. Peter, the respect and obedience he deserves and which was bestowed on him by Christ Himself as His Vicar on Earth.

  • Anonymous

    Mary@42 – where on earth have you been???  Look, no-one is denying the Pope respect or obedience in this matter.  They are respectfully asking him to look at obvious contradictions in the ‘official’ Fatima information that has been released to date – contradictions which would indicate that the Third Secret hasn’t been fully released, nor the Consecration of Russia fully done.  You remind me of those people who attacked the accusers of the founder of the Legionaries of Christ, Fr Marcial Maciel.  While Pope John Paul II was lauding and feting this pervert, because he had been totally deceived by him, voices who were clamouring for the truth to be made known about Fr Maciel were criticised, and accused of being ‘disrespectful’, ‘disloyal’ and ‘disobedient’.  When the truth finally emerged, it did not reflect well on the late Holy Father and many of the Church’s enemies made great capital out of it.  Who was really acting in the Holy Father’s best interests here?  Think of the scandal and further pain caused to Maciel’s victims.  Should Maciel’s accusers have remained silent when they could clearly see problems that would have a detrimental effect on the Papacy?  The answer is no.  And neither will people remain silent as long as they perceive that the full Fatima message is not being acted on, because ultimately, as Our Lady said, failure to comply with it will have an adverse effect on many souls.

  • Mary@42

    Please, please,  I never engage in fighting about my Holy Church. It has taught me all along and I believe her in Spirit and in Truth.  But  Mr. Signor Jacko, have you read the entire Document released on the 13th of May, 2011?  I did.  When the Fatima Apparition and the Messages of our Lady was the daily topic of our Mother Church, I believe – with no disrepect intended – you had not been born.  I am 72 years old and I have lived with my Church – though a humble obedient Cradle Catholic of no intellectual prowess.  And when the Alert came on my Laptop and I read all the documents, I was satisfied, especially with the Statements of Sister Lucia and the exchanges between her and the Holy See to the very last one before she died.  I have no reason whatsoever to believe my Church is lying to the entire Catholic Church now that She has Officially released the Fatima Holy Message to Her Children.  God bless you

  • Mary@42

    You will read, Sir, Sister Lucia’s emphatic confirmation that the Consecration of Russia was properly done in accordance with Our Lady’s Message and Heaven has accepted  the  Consecration. 

  • Anonymous

    Hang on one minute Mary@42 – “Please, please, I never engage in fighting . . . ”  Who is fighting?  I’m certainly not!  Stop using emotive language like that to try and wrong-foot someone who is simply disagreeing with your point of view.  If you don’t like your point of view being opposed, don’t come on blogs.  Easy as that.  Now, Canon Law states that the faithful have a right to express their concerns to their pastors, and that, ultimately, is all that we can do.  All of what have been termed ‘conspiracy theories’ are ultimately pleas to Authority to look anew at contradictory information that has been given and offer an explanation, or take appropriate action. 

    Our Church taught us that Fr Marcial Maciel was a good example of holiness – when manifestly he wasn’t – or do you disagree that Pope John Paul II was wrong about Maciel?  You seem to be implying that every word, thought, judgement and action by a Pope or a member of the Hierarchy is covered by infallibility which is certainly not the case.  Would you still be taking a ‘see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil’ approach to the Maciel situation?  I sincerely hope not.  I’m sure his victims wouldn’t agree with you. 

    If you’re satisfied with what you’ve read about Fatima, that’s fine, but please don’t berate others for not being satisfied with what they’ve read.  I do not know to which document you refer, but I have read the 2000 document The Message of Fatima on the Vatican website, and the book by Cardinal Bertone.  God bless you too.

  • mck

    I would like to make a small suggestion. It’s the first Saturday of the month this weekend, and it happens to be the feast of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Perhaps it would be opportune if those of us on this blog who are passionately concerned about acceding to Our Lady’s instructions for world peace, to begin the 5 first Saturdays starting from now? As a kind of ‘putting money where mouth is’…. Whilst remaining strangers to each other, nevertheless our prayers for this cause will be united and through prayer miracles are achieved. And pray the Rosary every day. Its a remarkably effective weapon against evil.

  • Petrus

    Mary,
     
    You seem like a nice woman.  But please read all the facts.  Where is the conversion of Russia? Where is the peace Our Lady promised? Do you believe Our Lady?

    Let’s cut to the chase – if the 1984 Consecration of the World was indeed the real Consecration of Russia then the whole Fatima story must be false.  Why do I say this?  No conversion of Russia and no world peace, that’s why.

  • Petrus

    That’s it in a nutshell.  I’ll await your response, Frances.  You too, Dr Oddie….

  • Lawrence

    I am sorry you don’t understand. That can be the only explaination for this level of ignorance. I will pray for you..

    You can’t speak intelligently about nods and winks in Catholic places so just cease speaking. You may learn more by meditating on the Bible and a ton of grace. To try to prove you wrong is not my issue, that’s obvious by your statements about things you don’t know….you are scared and trying to misdirect and I feel sorry for you. May the grace and peace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit find you.

  • Nishant Jeyaraj

    Thanks, Mary. I mirror your sentiments. But what do you mean, in 2011? I thought it was released way back under Pope John Paul II? Is there something new?

  • Nishant Jeyaraj

    Prudential acts, which may be misplaced, differ essentially from official Church statements, which are binding on us. The Church has said it refers to events in the past. What more do you want the Church to do?  Let us leave it at that. Obedience is never easy. Private opinion comes from pride.

  • Nishant Jeyaraj

    You are mistaken, “Rosary 15″

    I only gave the list as explanatory of the declines you mention. Sure,
    Communists may still hate the Church today. So?

    There is no “gigantic exodus”. There are more than 1.1 billion
    Catholics, a fourfold increase from 270 million a century ago.

    The Faith of the Church nor the liturgy has been “altered” in
    essence. The Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, and the OF reflects this.

    I mentioned “megachurch logic” as fallacious logic.

    The Second Vatican Council was Ecumenical. It is binding on
    all Catholics. The appeal to antiquity is a treason and a heresy, said a
    Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church long before the SVC, when it refuses the
    Living Voice of the Church. Ecumenism is just and necessary, because the Church
    has deemed it just and necessary.

    The Church is more concerned with corporate reunion,
    especially where the Eastern Churches are concerned, which include nearly 300
    million souls, which is why she goes in for Ecumenism. Likewise, many
    Evangelicals, She judges, are in good faith and so reaches out to them, with
    her riches. Top leaders have praised Pope John Paul II, the Catholic Church,
    and have even actually spoken of possible reunion themselves.

     

     

  • Anonymous

    There are plenty of ‘official Church statements’ on Fr Maciel and the Legionaries.  The movement had canonical approval for goodness sake.  Use Google.  Following your argument to its logical conclusion, you are accusing Pope Benedict XVI of pride, as he contradicted previous ‘official’ declarations on Fatima, when he said at Fatima, on May 13, 2010, before 500,000 pilgrims:- “Whoever thinks that the prophetic mission of Fatima is over, is DECEIVED.” As Cardinal Ratzinger, he also admitted that his and (then) Msgr. Bertone’s interpretation of the Secret in the 2000 document was not binding. Stop placing burdens and restrictions on others that the Church Herself doesn’t.  Such behaviour stems from pride.