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Is secularism a greater threat to Christianity than Islam?

At last night’s Spectator debate the panellists were hard to spot behind the straw men

By on Thursday, 30 June 2011

Tariq Ramadan, one of the speakers at last night's debate (PA photo)

Tariq Ramadan, one of the speakers at last night's debate (PA photo)

Is secularism a greater threat to Christianity than Islam? Before a debate on this question began at the Royal Geographical Society last night, I, along with 136 other members of the audience, supported the motion, while 67 disagreed. By the end of the evening opinion shifted quite significantly.

Speakers for the motion included the eloquent Dominican friar, Fr Timothy Radcliffe, and Tariq Ramadan, Professor of Islamic Studies at Oxford University. Both speakers at times made thoughtful and convincing contributions. Prof Ramadan’s assertion that religious communities deserve not just toleration, but respect, certainly made me pause for thought.

The most notable speech in favour of the motion came from Damian Thompson, editor of Telegraph blogs, who received warm applause both after and during his address. Perhaps his most popular observation was the rise of “toe-curling trendy hymns”, with “Shine Jesus Shine” marked as prime suspect for falling rates in church attendance. Beyond the rise of the Tambourine Form of the Roman Rite, Thompson noted that the erosion of Christianity was so advanced that it was even present within the Church itself, leading to a general dumbing down of Christian messages from some bishops and priests.

However, this dumbing down, he explained, is surely a result of secularism’s essence; contempt for religion manifest from the sneer around the secularised modern-day dinner table to the forced closure of Catholic adoption agencies.

Speakers against the motion were Nick Cohen of the National Secular Society, Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, who converted from Islam to Christianity, and Douglas Murray of the Centre for Social Cohesion.

I doubt a dissertation, let alone a blog, could do justice to the plethora of points the opposition raised last night, some of which were valid. There is no doubt that the incidents of Christian persecution by Muslims abroad, cited by Sookhdeo and Douglas Murray, were a powerful corroboration of the threat Islam might pose to Christianity.

But it was lamentable to witness the piety with which Douglas Murray deployed his attack, telling supporters of the motion that they were devoid of sense, reason or thought. I could barely see the panellists for the number of straw men Murray constructed during his 10-minute speech, squeaking at Thompson; how could he compare intimidation of a Catholic at a dinner party to a Christian being beheaded by a Muslim in Iraq? In light of these antics, it is depressing that the opposition still won the argument in the end by 59 votes.

All in all, the difference in opinion seemed to boil down to a question of priorities summarised by Sookhdeo, who reassured us: “Secularism does not pose a physical threat to Christianity, just a moral and spiritual one.”

Just moral and spiritual. Brilliant. Case closed.

  • ms catholic state

    Of course there are problems with a new Christendom….there is no such thing as Paradise this side of death…..but there are more problems without Christendom.

    And isn’t it nice to twart the anti-Christ beaurocratic bullies. Evangelisation prayer fasting and penance goes without saying…these are the basis of all else.  And I believe we must have an earthly goal as well as a Heavenly goal…..or our efforts can seem one legged. 

  • Martin

    Agreed :)

  • Martin

    Wrong……look at the schools…..look at the law courts……look at secular morality backed up by the PC brigade and the courts.

    The Christian gospel is being pushed out of every where.

    Why? because it clashes with the majority of what the atheist world wants to either bring in OR endorse.

    When Jesus walked in Jerusalem very few people had room in their heart to receive his words…..2000 years later, with all the advances we have had and the leaps in intelligence we are supposed to have had, the World is as deaf now to the truth as it was then.

    I will support your tax views if you allow me to remove my support (tax) from things i disagree with…..i know who would be better off at the end of the month!

  • jng

    On Wednesday, the head of UNESCO, on receiving an honorary degree from Edinburgh, seemed to express the rather odd thought that there is a connection between the philosophy of Hume and the work of UNESCO.  Perhaps it was a courtesy to her audience, but, although she is Bulgarian, her English is flawless so it is a safe assumption that she knows the difference between humanitarianism and Humanism.  It does, however, seem to be the case that the secular intelligentsia, and media, seem to wish to blur this difference.  It has, even, been claimed on a television programme that religion, despite the massive humanitarian efforts of the Church worldwide, is the cause of all hatred, rather ignoring the more gruesome records of atheistic states.
    Secularism, because of its pleasure pain philosophical base, derived, to a large extent from Hume’s philosophy, puts the wants of an individual in conflict with those of another, so must place the individual at odds with society.  Christianity, based largely on recognition of the natural law and the dignity of each individual, does not.
    One example of this is the conflicting views on abortion.  The Christian view of a foetus is that it is alive and human so that it must be treated as human life.  The more logical secular case would not dispute this as a human foetus is certainly is not equine, piscine or reptilian and it is alive, but will use a partial development argument to claim that it can be destroyed if the woman conceiving does not want to have a child.  This gives  respect for life an inferior value to an application of the pleasure pain principle, in the process rejecting it as a basis of their philosophy.  One wonders, therefore, what their philosophical justification is for the human rights Irana Bokova, even before her UNESCO days, championed.  Rights defined by a decoration of selected Christian principles over a pleasure pain base, might not, even, be logically justifiable so have doubtful validity.
    Secularism, of its very nature, is anti-Christian, and, in practice, aggressively so.  The Western version of Islam is not.
    Evil, as three fictional ladies once observed, manifests itself when fair is foul and foul is fair.  They might not have been beauties, but, perhaps, they were quite shrewd.

  • Anonymous

    To be honest I would disagree with the reasons why Christianity is rejected. I would have to say that the actual reason is, rather ironically, that most atheists either misunderstand religion, misunderstand the science that they claim has surpassed it or misunderstand both. Given that our secular politicians refuse to allow serious religion to be taught in schools the only “beliefs” that most have are those taught in primary schools and so they meet secularists who dispel their childhood version of Christianity; which is all they know as we of the younger generations are not allowed to be taught any religion properly. In other words if we want to stop people being drawn into atheism we have to teach them what Christianity is rather than what the modern world would like it to be.

  • Anonymous

    It is indeed easier; just as it was easier for the Germans of the Third Reich to never speak out against the Holocaust. There are only three differences between the two situations: firstly that the people who are murdered now are even more defenceless than those butchered in the gas chambers, secondly they are butchered by their parents rather than racist Germans and thirdly the modern Holocaust is worldwide; it seems as though Hitler and the Nazis may have had the last laugh after the war after all. We are always taught how evil the Nazis were and yet the parallels between Nazi Germany and the Secular West are exact: all must adhere to the prevailing political correctness, the unwanted are either neglected or disposed of and Christian values are ground into the dirt.

    There is, however one more difference between secularism and Nazism: in Nazi Germany people were killed for opposing the state and so it was understandable that so few dared to do so. In today’s society we are merely mocked for espousing the truth and so we have no excuse for not comdeming secularism and standing up for Christianity.

    I assume that this will be flagged as spam fairly soon but there is the main trait of secularism that sets it apart from Islam: in an Islamic society Christians are oppressed but never abandon their faith; in the Secular West we abandon our faith but are never oppressed. The question of the article, therefore is more accurately put as “how is Christianity to die? By the oppression of Christians under Shariah Law or the ignorance of them during secularism’s holocaust?”

  • Anonymous

    By combining faith and reason and retaining the loyalties of our faith; the two are not opposed. The introduction of reason into a society as well as the morals of faith is a match made in Heaven; the introduction of reason at the expense of faith is the start of the road to Hell. Certainly reason and the Enlightenment have given us much intelligence but to say that this removes the need for faith is not only absurd but is a path to disaster. It is just as Voltaire understood it: (even though I use his words in a different context) “atheism is the vice of a few intelligent people.” It also happens to be the vice responsible for the most bloodguilty ideology in history that killed far more people than any Dark Age blindly faithful fanatic. Some escape that.

  • Martin

    It is possible you are right although more than likely as i indicated above, Atheists have already made up their mind about what they believe and as such they have made a definate decision that they want none of it taught anywhere as from their perspective it is a load of rubbish.

    Unfortunately these people are in the places that matter when it comes to calling the shots about what is taught. As a result people who have no strong views one way or another are not given the whole picture to choose from. They only get what the atheist want them to recieve. A watered down PC gospel of relativity OR their view trumpeted as FACT and the view of intelligent people.

    So, the only way around it is what?  In short teach it ourselves and stop relying on everyone else. What that will mean is learning the bible and learning to speak out what we really know to be true based on a real relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit.  How many want to do that rather than leave it to the guys that get paid for that kind of thing?……….Surely it is not our Job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of course it is.
     

  • Martin

    I think you are being far too pessimistic……People who claim to be christian will always be walked through the fire in order for them to evaluate their faith. Some will fail the test, others will pass but have nothing other than their faith and yet others will have their good works that they have done in Christ. This is the wisdom of God in action. It is a mercy that allows us to evaluate our own lives through the weighing of the Holy Spirit and move forward and upwards, suffering whilst not nice is a gift. For those that fail, it is a chance to start again with the time we have left. God is an amazingly patient father who wants all of his children to be refined like Gold. We need to view everything in this life as it really is. A chance for us to be conformed to the likeness of his Son Jesus. No one likes being disciplined, but God only disciplines his children. None of us are orphans, we are children of the most high God! We are not to be concerned about those that can harm the body, but fear the one that could condemn our soul to hell! The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, knowning that God truely loves us enough to send his son to die in our place as a penalty for sin is the next step.

    God is preparing us for Heaven and allowing us the chance to see how much he is REALLY a part of it from our point of view…….When we really have to suffer or face opposition for our faith, we may be surprised on what we see.

  • Anonymous

    If we are not to be concerned about that which harms the body are we to be concerned by the oppression of the truth of God so that most will never hear of him or will reject with consequences including our holocaust? You are right that we must regard failure as an oppurtunity to start again but how many babies must die and how much blasphemy must be shouted in the streets before that comes to pass?

    You are also right that we must fear that which leads to Hell; in other words Lucifer’s temptations. God may be a patient father but his adversary seems as active and as energetic as ever and we all know what must happen next. True all Christians must be tested in this life but there are very few Christians who know their faith (particularly in my own generation.) That is not an insult but merely an observation that many Christians are attempting to live an adult Christian life with a five year-old’s Christian philosophy as that is all that we are allowed to teach; that and so many of them are trying to do away with the idea of Hell and even the position of Christ as the son of God. I do not know what religon these people believe in but it is most certainly not Christianity.

  • Mrs. Rene O’Riordan

    The Catholic Church has been from the beginning the greatest educator ever. Faith and Reason have always been at work in Catholic thinking – r

  • Martin

    We only need to be truly concerned if the oppression of the truth comes from WITHIN the church. It has always been on the outside. The outside world has never silenced the truth and neither will it as long as we do not love our lives enough not to die for Christ (if called to do so).
    It is here that we meet with  Jesus’ words…Who do you say i am?…Is he the resurrection and the life? Do we believe it enough to go the way of the cross. Do we believe we will go from life TO life?
    It is only the power of the fear of death that holds us back. Jesus has conquered death!

    One thing you need to understand about the abortion of children Anonymous is that as terrible as it is, you are only called to love and offer the people that want to do it, an alternative. You are not the law. You cannot make them not do it. They, like you will be called before our Father in heaven to give account of their lives. Protest yes, offer your home for the child to grow up in your family if at all possible. But be careful that you do not go beyond the Gospel. Everyone has freewill, we are therefore all accountable for our actions. Do not forget to love the sinner, Jesus came to die for them as well. We were all murders once, whether in thought or deed, we have simply understood where we were and chose the light. Through Grace and that not by ourselves…so that no man may boast.

    As to blasphemy….do not worry about it too much, our God is a big God. It is a consequence of the fall and God has made a way of forgiveness through the death and resurrection of his Son. God will defend himself and call everyone he needs to, to account. We must simply pray that the Holy Spirit reaches that individual before his last breath leaves him/or her. Christ has given us peace, receive it.

    I disagree with you about your generation not knowing the Gospel. From memory of reading your comments elsewhere you are a teenager?

    Do you know the basic Gospel accounts? Do you know the difference between right and wrong? Do you remember how you came into an encounter with Jesus through the Holy Spirit? Do you know how your life has changed since that happened? If the answer is yes, then you are perfect for spreading the Gospel. The Apostles as young men didnt have any particular knowledge that wasnt given through Jesus. We have his Words in the Bible. Jesus says “Remember the words i have spoken to you. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teachings, they will obey yours….”  he was talking to me and you as well as them!

    Leave arguements that you do not understand, they normally ruin faith anyway and confuse the hearer. Keep to what you are sure of. Even the 5 year olds knew who Jesus was before the elder generation. If i remember rightly; Jesus reminded those listerning to the younger children praising him that if they shut up, even the Stones would start to sing out!

    Just be, and let God guide your encounters……let your life speak for you. (i will try to follow my own advice! Lol)

  • Anonymous

    Yes we do believe that it is the way of the cross but others do not. I know that you think that we should others to their own devices but with such blasphemy and such crimes as they comit without Christ it is hard to imagine that any sort of salvation can come either to them to those that they turn away from the gospel (bearing in mind Christ’s words “nobody comes to the father except by me.”) I should emphasize that I do not say that out of arrogance- I certainly cannot keep the word all of the time and any who can need not even listen to what we say- what I mean if secularists are actively turning others away from the gospel then we cannot simply rest on our laurels; we cannot let them continue like this for others’ and their own sakes as much as our own.

    You say to keep to what I am sure of but that will no longer do with anybody; if we are to retain any chance of preaching the gospel then we will have to know as much as possible about what we preach. The world will not accept a child’s Christianity today.

    You are right about my age and given that I have never Catholic school I do not know what happens there. What I can say categorically is that it is alarming how little people I know seem to know about religion in general and the only education in “Religious Education” classes is debates about modern ethical issues and the vague opinions of religions concerning these topics. The specifics of each religion are left out and hence, had I not asked questions about my own faith, all I would know is a childish version of Anglicanism (given that my local primary school was Anglican) which bears almost no relation to authentic Christianity; there is no mention of sin, very few of the teachings of Christ and, understandably, I only learned of transubstantiation after I asked my mother when I had been categorically told that the doctrine was false as a result of which I thought until I entered high school that Anglicanism was Christianity and Catholicism something else altogether. It seems little wonder that none of the people I know of my own age is actually a specific believer as the association of Christianity with these primary school lessons destroys it’s credibility.

    Also you say that blasphemy does not matter to God and you are right; it is not God that I worry about. The same situation shows in abortion; I like to think that I can avoid holding a personal grudge against those who choose it and the same with blasphemous and if they do repent then I leave them in God’s hands; the reason I lose my temper with abortion is that I happen to care just as much about the children who have died as a result. This goes beyond a peaceful argument; we hold to the same teachings of forgiveness with regards to Hitler and Stalin but in the case of 200,000 children dead a year it is far more than simply “offering an alternative.” It becomes as essential an enterprize as the stand against Fascism and Communism and, if we go on staying calm about it and trying to water down the Church’s ideas and trying to make them sound acceptable, it will have far worse results if lost. We cannot make people stop aborting children? Why not? Few supported the abolition of slavery when it was introduced, many people all over Europe thought either Fascism or Communism the way forward; when an issue becomes an issue of saving life then I would not hesitate to use force. That does not mean killing people but when it comes to access to abortion then why leave it open? Which option would Christ prefer: that we allow others their right to reject him or that we allow children their right to life?

    Unfortunately the one thing that I seem to agree with you about is the fact the Church itself surpresses the faith as well as failing to spread the word outside itself in Europe at least. Pope Benedict took a step in the right direction when he pointed out the flaws in Islam but the fact that he had to retract his comments straight away shows his situation all too clearly; to most he is not the leader of the Church but merely the man who hates the modern world, which is something I like him all the more for, but it shows his situation: he has to stay acceptably to modern society to some degree as so many in the Church refuse to listen to him over birth control, abortion and homosexuality. If we are to continue to preach Christ’s word then we must first learn both of the sources we have: the book of his works and his representative on Earth. With groups like “Catholics for choice” now at secularism’s door the only way the Church will ever be preached seriously again is if members of it learn to obey the doctrines it has always held. If Catholics begin to dissent now then it will be even more of an uphill struggle for the true Church.

  • http://twitter.com/victorshannock Victor Weston

    in Bury St Edmunds a well known lady expressed to me yesterday the expectation Islam would soon be the prevailing religion in the UK.  A few years ago another lady in the same town suggested the same about France.  Islam doesn’t fear nor needs to accommodate secularism – the challenge to a wounded compromised Christianity seems more from a confident (triumphalist?)  Islam that will not think outside the Quran

  • Martin

    Wow, you packed alot in your reply. Here’s my attempt at adding to or expanding on what i said before in line with your comments:
     
    You said it’s hard to imagine any sort of salvation for the people who do these kind of things such as blasphemy or any other such crimes. You are absolutely right, there is only one kind of salvation on offer and that is the death and resurrection of Jesus, full stop. Nothing else meets the mark because nothing else can totally meet the requirement of the wilful sin of human beings again God and each other. You are 100% right that no one get to the Father (God) less through Jesus. It is not arrogance but FACT. People dont like facts. This is the second part of the point you raise. The secularist are doing their best to turn people away from Christ. Correct. But you cannot force people not to listen OR make the others shut up. We need freedom of speech and that should be encouraged.  What we need to do is speak about and MORE importantly live out our faith day by day. It is exactly what the first Christian communities did , to the effect that people used to hold them in high regard and say, Look how they love each other. If they are not saying it about us now, i would suggest that rather than concerning ourselves primarily with everyone else, we should look at getting our own house in order! As we do that, people (with the help of the Holy Spirit) would start to change their opinion of us. We really have (if you pardon the expression….Crapped on our own doorstep as  a Christian community. The Protestants are falling into the world and the Catholic church is doing its best to sleep or have sex with it….i am being very crude but you get my point that this is how they see us. They don’t say as a Whole, look how they love each other).
     
    You say that the world will not except a childlike testamony, you are right, but even the best reasoned argument in the world is nothing without the witness of a matching life. I am not talking about a legalistic lifestyle, i am simply talking about one with love faith and hope, expressing itself in love.
     
    Whilst the practises of a church denomination are important, it is not what makes you a  Christian. That is faith in Jesus Christ and being baptised into him. An Anglican is as much a Christian as a Catholic, a Catholic as much a Christian as a Greek orthodox ect ect. Faith is the starting point, the rest is theology which although extremely important is not what keeps you in the love of God. Faith in the Son of God is everything and the only route to the Father. Without faith, nothing pleases GOD. I have heard a lot of arguements about this topic and unless you have been on both sides of the fence without picking up the bitterness, it is difficult to see the wood for the trees. Choose where God is calling you and let that be enough for you.
     
    As to your frustrations about abortion and the like. I am not suggesting that you relax your stance on the church’s teaching in regard to wrong doing. What you must understand amongst all your emotions is that as much as you claim to love the unborn, the person doing the abortions are equally loved by God.  God himself never takes away a person’s freewill to do something, i do not believe the bible gives us the right to do so either. All we can do is help. Remember that regardless of your view on the law, they are still acting within the law of the land. If we start kidnapping people in order for them to go the full term then YOU would be the one in prision.  The only way you could change that is through the law.
     
    I did think you got slightly confused on the following comment, “Which option would Christ prefer: that we allow others their right to reject him or that we allow children their right to life?” God has always given people the right to reject him, WE have no say in the matter. What we think doesn’t count. It is a one to one issue between the Creator and the Created. We dont even come into it (nor should we). But as to allowing a child the right to life. Of course we should want that, of course we should encourage that, but how do you do the good you want to do without becoming the tyrant?
     
    In regards to who you listen to I would add that the most important person to listen to is the Holy Spirit. It is him who calls to mind the words and teachings of Christ, it is him who seals you for heaven, it is him who gives you the fruit of the Spirit and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. No one else can do that. (i am not discounting the Pope and especially the Bible, i am just placing GOD in his rightful place).
     
    I am looking forward to hearing from you.  God Bless.

  • Anonymous

    I should probably clarify what I meant when I mentioned the Church of England. My mention of it was simply to underline the fact that faith does not seem to be allowed to grow with those who hold it; in other words I had the good fortune of learning some Christianity at school but many people going to secular schools will learn even less than I did there. I hope it didn’t come across as though I was saying that Anglicanism is in any way lesser Christianity; if it did then it was not meant to. Also there is the problem that secondary schools seem to neglect religion almost entirely; not only is RE unpopular but if you want to learn about your own religion or anybody elses it is almost useless. Hence comes the problem of people still believing a child’s faith. If the only religion most people know is that which they learned as children then secularism has a field day in converting them to atheism- the solution would seem to continue.

    As to the point of the modern disapproval of the salvation doctrine you now see why I appear so pessimistic I presume? You know the words of Christ as well as (and probably better than) I do but the problem would seem to be one of allowing people too much freedom. The lapse of Christianity seems to be affecting both us and secularists and neither will come off better out of it. For Christianity it may meen that we will have to start again in spreading the gospel (not knowing how many souls will be lost in the meantime) and for secularists it means the society with such little restraint; with the modern abandonment of sexual restraint, marriage, honest politics and the general trend towards greed their lives on this side of the grave seem bad enough with or without the next one to worry about; if ever there were a time when Christianity was needed this surely must be it.

    As for abortion you may be right about kidnapping but that is not what I had in mind. When I say use force what I mean is forcably closing the clinics (without using violence of course.) People may have a right to freedom of speech but, given that ours is so often convienently ignored, then it seems a rather more direct approach was needed. One idea comes from the time that the BUF were simply blocked from marching through London; why not block the abortion clinics in that way if it is what is required to make the point known. Certainly it may be against British law but it was against German law to attempt to assassinate Hitler was it not? Given that I do not wish for anybody to die in this demonstration (including any unborn infants) I see no reason that it contravenes God’s law (which given the state of British law now is the only authority I accept to judge the matter.)

  • Anonymous

    And people like you, sir, are a grave threat to both.

  • Hazel_pratt

    Christianity is declining because it is not being taught in schools.  Who teaches God’s commandments now??
    Why did we mess about with the wording of traditional prayers, even “The Our Father”.  Parents could not teach their children the prayers they were taught due to so-called “upgrading”.  The church from within caused the decline in Roman Catholicism.  They employed non christians in christian schools.  Even today christianity is overshadowed by teaching other faiths in so-called Christian schools.  Faith is believing without doubting what God has revealed.  Keep God  in your heart, with God, all things are possible.H Pratt

  • Imaginary friend called God

    In this debate, christians were urged to view secularism as a bigger threat too their religion. Who is siding with whom? Are you one of the christians who’d support muslims in condemning separation of church and state? Are christians the architects of the West? The West is what it is has been since the enlightenment today thanks largely to its architects neutering the Church.

  • https://openid.org/locutus LocutusOP

    I am rather positively inclined towards Islam – since I come from a country which respects plurality, one in which Christians, Muslims and traditional religions have lived side-by-side without conflict. Perhaps for that reason, I am unequivocal in that secularism is a greater threat to Christianity than Islam.

    A Muslim will not want revere Mohammed and receive Holy Communion at the same time. There is a sharp division between the Islamic world and the Christian world, and these borders are by and large respected by both sides. For that reason, Christians don’t go into mosques trying to implant Jesus and Muslims don’t come to mass trying to implant Mohammed. Muslims for the most part just want to be left alone.

    The problem is that many secularists want to have the benefits of the Christian life – the sense of communion, the sense of fighting the good fight – so long as it does not conflict with their hedonistic tendencies. For many secularists Christianity is a form of social club and the line between the faith and the communion is very blurred. So they will try to implant their own ideology and diffuse the faith so as not to feel uncomfortable at these ‘social gatherings’ whereas Muslims will just avoid these ‘social gatherings’ altogether and stick to their own. This wouldn’t be a problem if most Christians lived for the truth but as many point out, most people have a thoroughly deficient understanding of the Christian faith, and will be vulnerable to any ideology which seeks to ‘liberate’ them and endorse their selfish actions.

    Secularism is the enemy within, the Trojan horse, and that’s why it’s much more dangerous than anything Islam will ever pose. Islam cannot kill Christianity and it cannot kill the Christian life or the Christian message – and I’m not even sure it tries to. Sure, in some instances Christians will be killed in the name of Islam, and in many places Christianity might even be pushed underground, but history has shown that persecution doesn’t affect the Gospel. What we really need to guard against is those enemies against Christianity who attack the faith from within, those who blend with the rest. They attack Christianity in a form of guerilla warfare – one minute you see them, the next minute you don’t. It’s only those who will close down Christian schools, shut down Christian charities, attack the Christian gospel, profane God and endorse all manner of evils while claiming to be Christian who can bring down the faith.

  • Anonymous

    If you can name one who truly denied the Church then I will be impressed. If you look back then I think you’ll find that Christians are not only the architects of the west but the very core of it. You say that the enlightenment was the denial of the Church but almost none of the great scientists of the time were anything other than Christians; names such as Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, Kepler and Clerk-Maxwell all apply to this idea. Also, further back, the only way the barbarians managed to govern after the fall of Rome was with the help of the Popes and the fact that Europe is not living under an Islamic dictatorship is due solely to Christian bravery at Malta, Lepanto and Vienna. I would advise you to look at history before teaching it.

  • JH

    Religion is quite simply stupid. Regarless of the name and form of the deity being worshipped. Simple as that.