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Debate: Is there any hope for Catholic Ireland?

Can removing bishops, redrawing dioceses and a papal visit next year lead the Irish Church towards renewal?

By on Friday, 29 July 2011

Benedict XVI may visit Ireland next year when it hosts the 50th International Eucharistic Congress (CNS photo)

Benedict XVI may visit Ireland next year when it hosts the 50th International Eucharistic Congress (CNS photo)

Many Irish Catholics are furious with the Church. The prime minister, Enda Kenny, says he has received “thousands” of messages of support for his outburst against the Vatican last week. His government wants to limit the seal of Confession. Vocations are at an all-time low. Priests face widespread anger.

The latest tide of hostility is down to the Cloyne Report – a devastating indictment of the Church’s handling of abuse allegations as recently as 2008.

What can be done? The Pope has apologised; the Church is being subjected to a Visitation; several bishops have resigned. There are calls for the number of dioceses to be cut, and for many more bishops to stand down. But will that lead to renewal?

Next year, Pope Benedict XVI may be visiting Ireland when it hosts the 50th International Eucharistic Congress. He may not: the trip has never been confirmed by the Vatican and, in the current climate, it could be cancelled. Some have called for the Eucharistic Congress itself to be cancelled.

But if Benedict XVI does visit he would be able to confront the crisis in person. His trips to Turkey, France, the Czech Republic and Britain show he is unafraid of hostility. Perhaps, combined with drastic reform, his visit might nudge Ireland towards reconciliation.

  • Concerned Catholic

    We must pray for the Church in Ireland, especially for the victims of abuse.  The victims must be our main focus.  The Church in Ireland will never overcome these troubles until more is done to help the victims of abuse.  The Irish Church must be torn down and rebuilt.  The Irish Church needs purging; and nothing less than the defrocking of all Churchmen involved in this rancid scandal will suffice.

  • Harper

    Yes, time for defrocking the guilty and support for good clergy.

  • Stuart James

    The Pope’s visit to the UK is the ultimate reason I’m converting to Catholicism. If he can achieve that with me as a person held ant-Catholic leanings, then I he can achieve anything, and I hope to God he does go to Ireland.

  • Stuart James

    The Pope’s visit to the UK is the ultimate reason I’m converting to Catholicism. If he can achieve that with me as a person held ant-Catholic leanings, then I he can achieve anything, and I hope to God he does go to Ireland.

  • Michael Petek

    Let us not forget that the Catholic Church in Ireland has just completed a year of penance imposed on it by the Holy Father. However, though this may mend the Church, it won’t mend a nation which has decided to turn away from God and is using the child abuse scandal as a pretext for unbelief. So no, I think Ireland is pretty much finished as a Christian nation.

    Father Edward Flanagan, the founder of Boys’ Town, came to Ireland in 1946 and denounced the industrial schools where so much of this abuse was to be committed over the next several decades. For this he was scorned by the Minister of Justice on the floor of Dail Eireann.

    These crimes were committed by Irish people on Irish territory, and under the noses of the Irish police and of an Irish state which cannot say it hadn’t been warned.

  • Guest

    Ireland is in the adolescent phase of its development. People are responding to the Church and politicians like teenagers would to overbearing parents. People don’t want to admit that they were not all that Catholic after all or have moved on with notions of modernity. Its easier to blame the Pope and others for what happened instead of taking personal responsibility and doing something about it. Why for example haven’t the Government enacted Childprotection legislation. Its not as if they haven’t had enough time or cause. Its easier for Enda Kenny and society to opt out and to blame Rome that to admit they dragged their feet in this matter, like the bishops. Bishops are part of society and it seems that for all the outrage no one in society is stepping up. Until people start taking personal responsibility i.e. family members of the victims, police officers and friends for what happened, the protection of children and their faith instead of continuing to blame far away Rome things will get worse before they get better. Purging the Church and defrocking individual criminals masquerading as priests is not enough when society refuses to take responsibility instead of just being outraged. A visit by the Holy Father would certainly help those of us who are more secure in our faith and might help others become more mature in theirs.

  • mrpants

    Absolutely.
    We are all only too painfully aware of the horror that took place. Now Ireland needs to address its own problems and stop blaming Rome for the sickness that Ireland nurtured and allowed to spread.
    Having said that I cannot help but think this headline is somewhat hysterical. Ireland is still a very Christian country and with God’s will the Pope will visit and help to begin to put things right.

  • RGM

    So sad, how many decent Catholics in Ireland and worldwide give their lives in the service of others?  Sad particularly because they are led by a Vatican that over the past two decades has shown itself to be increasingly remote, morally bankrupt and corrupt.  What a brutal British occupation failed to achieve in Ireland over centuries the Vatican and its subservient Bishops have managed in a few years.  Austen Ivereigh may call the Irish reaction ‘hysterical’ but it is not.  Nor indeed is it a reaction to the abuse itself, rather it is an outburst of anger and revulsion to the long standing and continuing futile attempts at concealment and spin. Abuse occurs everywhere, what sets the Catholic Church apart is the concealment.   Benedict may have inherited this problem but he has done little to improve the situation.  In his own words ‘ An apology is not the same as an acceptance of responsibility’ 

  • Anonymous

    It would be wonderful if the Holy Father were to visit Ireland next year. It must be remembered that prior to his visit to this country last year there were all sorts of predictions that it would not be well received. The result was overwhelmingly opposite.
    I am sure that in spite of its troubled past the Irish Catholic Church will respond equally to the Holy Father’s pastoral concerns which would be magnified by his presence.

  • Anonymous

    It would be wonderful if the Holy Father were to visit Ireland next year. It must be remembered that prior to his visit to this country last year there were all sorts of predictions that it would not be well received. The result was overwhelmingly opposite.
    I am sure that in spite of its troubled past the Irish Catholic Church will respond equally to the Holy Father’s pastoral concerns which would be magnified by his presence.

  • Concerned Catholic

    The Irish Church hierarchy and the Irish Government are to blame for this scandal.  There was an unholy alliance between the Irish Government and the Church in Ireland. The Church in Ireland was given far too much power; so much so that they were held unaccountable for decades. The Irish Church was beyond criticism.  Power corrupted the Church in Ireland. 

  • http://0xtc.com/ Tanin

    These types of organisations should be disbanded and its leaders prosecuted for crimes against humanity. They stunt the development of societies by consistently propagating their dogma as if it were fact, creating generations of servile unenlightened humans that are used as cattle workforce and enablers. The grotesquely dishonest charlatans that run these religious groups utilize their power to rape and abuse children, take money from poor populations to invest in billion dollar holdings in the Vatican, spread lies about diseases such as AIDS, lie about condoms in Africa, spread hate of LGBT people, demand the subjugation of women, and are generally pompous douche bags in funny dresses and ridiculous hats demanding respect as it were a given.

    There is no dignity or virtue in the pretentious pleasing of these men by perceiving them as “divine” or “holy”. Joseph Ratzinger can change his name and assume an objectively meaningless title and he’s still just a balding old man with health issues and an unhealthy apatite for helping pedophiles. The remarkable thing is that should he become demented and start to smoothly transition from proclaiming Christian dogma to babbling gibberish, his uneducated followers will immediately believe he’s speaking in tongues. That is the pathetic extent of the religious self delusion humanity has cultivated.

  • Brian McDonough

    The Cloyne Report may remind
    some readers of the remark in Robert Grave’s I Claudius: “Let all the
    poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.” Is the Catholic Church’s
    hierarchic structure specifically designed perpetually to permit its
    priests to poison and victimize Catholic children with their known
    pathological sexual dysfunction? Is the Church’s undeniable culture of
    clerical pederasty in its core? Is the Church a private club for
    pedophiles, their protectors, and their enablers? Is the Church an
    utterly immoral institution and a truly unGodly organization? How would a
    reasonable reader answer these questions after pondering [1] the
    McCullough Report, [2] the Murphy Report, [3] the Ferns Report, [4] the
    Ryan Report, [5] the McCoy Report, and now [6] the Cloyne Report? How
    many more Reports will there be? How many Reports must there be before
    the Church ceases protecting itself and solely protect its children?Are
    there no diamonds in the rough of Cloyne, Ferns, Raphoe, Limerick,
    Galway, Dublin, and all Ireland? Is there no one “at the top” to stop
    the Church’s child abuse, once and for all, finally? Yes. Consider who,
    among the Church hierarchy itself, has been condemned by the hierarchy
    precisely for siding with the victims and not the Old Boys Club? The
    Cloyne Report may remind some readers to review the criticisms made by
    Auxiliary Bishop Emeritus of Dublin Dermot O’Mahony of Father Diarmuid
    Martin, Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland: “The archbishop did
    nothing to counteract the statement of the Murphy report, widely
    circulated in the media, that the majority of clergy knew and did
    nothing”. . . “To suggest our approach failed to take cognisance of the
    safety of children is inaccurate and unjust. The acceptance by media and
    current diocese policy that a cover-up took place must be challenged.”
    [See Irish Times articles of January 27, 28, Febuary 5, 2010.]  Given
    the Cloyne Report, Father O’Mahony’s statements are contemptible
    rubbish, as were similar criticisms of Archbishop Martin by some lackey
    priests. The Cloyne Report is a scathing denunciation of those
    who criticized Archbishop Martin and a complete vindication of the
    approach that he has taken. The Cloyne Report reveals that Archbishop
    Martin is a diamond in the cesspool that is a Church hierarchy of
    pedophile protectors and enablers. Were there more priests and
    Bishops like Diarmuid Martin, there would be no need for [1] the
    McCullough Report, [2] the Murphy Report, [3] the Ferns Report, [4] the
    Ryan Report, [5] the McCoy Report, [6] the Cloyne Report, and the other
    Reports that must necessarily follow, because the Church’s poisons will
    continue to hatch out perpetually until it finally ceases protecting
    itself and solely protects its children. Only when the Church
    starts protecting itself by protecting its children will it finally
    eradicate its poisons and have no need for apologists who
    try to defect responsibility onto anyone but the ”Cabal” of the
    Vatican hierarchy, which is the term that Archbishop Martin used to
    described them in a recent interview.

    There is no “gray area” or a “conscience of clay” when it comes to pedophiles because they are immoral “black” holes as are those who fail to report allegations of sexual abuse to authorities for they protect pedophiles from being investigated and thereby enable him to abuse again. 

  • Anonymous

    There are those out there that believe that if the Pope actually went to Ireland that the response would be far greater than that seen during the UK Papal Visit. I pray to God it is. After all, the alternative vision that the previous and present Irish governments have put in place is far from the panacea that they think it is. A combination of the fall of Catholicism and the virtually ‘enforced’ acceptance of the Euro as all but crippled Ireland spiritually and morally. Ireland is now as morally bankrupt as the rest of the UK or the US.

  • James MacMillan

    God bless you Stuart James, and welcome.

  • Gflood92

    I address all people of prayer, pray for Catholics in Ireland. Pray, Pray, Pray my friends

  • American Guest

    If every Irish bishop appointed before 2003 is forced to stand down-how many bishops would that be?

  • Clergyvictim

    If I may be so bold as to put my two cents worth into this discussion.  In April 2008 the Pope came to America and “scolded” the hierarchy for “badly handling” the abuse crisis.  Since then I have seen NO CHANGE in the bishop’s attitudes toward new abuse cases coming forward — they are fighting tooth and nail to keep everything out of the courts so that they will not have to testify what they knew etc.  The “settlements” that are making the headlines are no more than a “bribe” to pay off the victims so the hierarchy can remain silent (and get away with  abetting criminals).
    Since the outbreak of the sexual abuse scandal in 2002, which the Vatican described as “An American thing” the scandal has spread around to world – Canada, Australia, Ireland, England, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Hungary etc.  From issi side of the pond ir appears only Irish politicians have been able to “nail it” on the head — dysfunctional, elitist, arrogant, narcissistic attitude of the hierarchy as the cause of the crisis continuing.  Since the Pope’s visit in 2008 there is NO CHANGE.
    Now the Vatican pulls the papal nuncio and reassigns him to the Czech Republic because Rome is upset with the way the crisis was handled in Ireland.  How is this any different from a bishop receiving a complaint of abuse by a priest, and simply moving him to another parish?  Again, NO CHANGE.
    I applaud the prime minister of Ireland for standing up to the arrogant, narcissistic and non-caring hierarchy.  
    Fr. Jim Moran
    http://clergysexualabiuevicitms.com and http://vimeo.com/13900438 (this latter is a cable presentation we prepared to education non-victims as to the impact abuse has on the life of a person.)

  • Rory Pengel

    “led by a Vatican that over the past two decades has shown itself to be increasingly remote”
    This is obviously incorrect. Irelands problems began centuries ago…if anything, the vatican is finally getting it’s act together in regards to sexual abuse in the last decade.

  • Rory Pengel

    The question should be “Is there any hope for Ireland, period.”

    Of course, the answer is YES! But only if they stay close to Christ.

  • Martin

    The Holy Spirit will decide this one rather than the Irish Government (or any Government). If you think that this uncovering was brought about by anyone less than God i believe you are all mistaken. It is the same as the CofE situation with Homosexual clergy and the arguments that are happening there, God is purifying his church and rather than be dismayed about it, celebrating that God is still acting in the life of the church would be a fantastic start.

    What we need to remind ourselves is that God does not treat his church in the same way that he treats the secular nations. He lets them fill up the measure of their Guilt and then Judges them in sometimes quite horrific ways. Read the Old Testament for examples and then look at modern day examples such as Germany in WW2 for the way they treated people and esp the Jews.
    God deals with the Church BEFORE it gets to the point of no return. He deals with it as a Son and he disciplines in as required. As it is in this case, he has exposed its hidden shame.

    Why did he do this?

    Firstly i believe to protect the innocent and allow justice to be done, how many times have issues been raised to the church in order for them to act? Did they listern…no, so he exposed them. Learn the Fear of God from this, what other sins are we about to have revealed if we dont stop and repent of them?

    Secondly, being a christian is no excuse to expect favoritism. If we act like sinners, we will be judged as sinners. The Holy Spirit is not some fluffy thing that is subject to us. We are his children and he is TOTALLY in control. If we have presumed otherwise, how far have we fallen?

    Thirdly, to protect the honour of Jesus and to keep his church intact. Get this in your head, God is alive and well, he is fully active in the Church, he is not subject to Atheistics, agnostics, people of faith or whatever title you want to lable people with. He is God ALMIGHTLY, creator of the Universe, Alpha and Omega, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, he is constantly walking amongst the Candle stands of his church and weighing their actions. He may seem slow to act by some of our interuptation but he is hoping for us to repent rather than having to encourage us. Stand by if we think we can walk a different path from HIS way and get away with it!

    No, the church in Ireland or the church in any location of this world is fully under the watchful eye of the Holy Spirit and he is refining it in order to prepare a Bride for his Son. One that is dressed in White and Holy.

    Numbers mean nothing, it is the heart that matters.

    We are being refined and we should be shouting the truth of this to those that do not believe in God! If God is willing to do this to the Church, what is he going to do to the rest of the world who do exactly the same things.

    Whilst people may be knocked in their faith, the source of it, Jesus, is immovable. He will shepherd his people and raise up new leaders for them.

    Let us praise God for what he is doing and stop making excuses for the sins of others.

    Let us assist the Holy Spirit do this work and then strike out with a revived purpose that is grounded in Christ and centred in Holiness and purity.

    People are not stupid, they will recognise Christ in those that reflect Christ and follow them that walk as he did.

    Jesus is preparing his Church for his return. Let us not give satan anymore footholds within out lives.

  • AnAnonymousCoward

    John Paul II was the most traveled Pope in history. He had this little problem called Communism to deal with, a problem which even led to an assassination attempt. I would hardly call that ‘increasingly remote’, ‘corrupt’ or ‘morally bankrupt’. It is nice to forget this problem when one lived in Ireland, far away under protection of NATO and American dollars, but some of us had to face it every day.

    What is also noticeable is that the Communists who used every possible opportunity to discredit the Church in Eastern Europe and had many insider spies, did not bring out any child abuse allegations against the Church over there.

  • AnAnonymousCoward

    I think it is the action of the average Catholic which reflect badly on the Church and not the clergy. We are just too lazy and too secular to really be serious about the faith.

  • Dolly

    There does appear to be some evidence the Pope was involved in covering up the abuse and torture off children and so there is understabnding at Irelands justifiable anger of the issue.

  • http://lxoa.wordpress.com/ shane

    Irish Catholicism is often misrepresented (see: http://lxoa.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/le-catholicisme-du-type-irlandais/ ) however I think Rome bears a lot of blame for the mess it’s in, both in appointing lousy bishops and failing to tackle doctrinal craziness. The Vatican still has not issued an official response to the Cloyne Report. The Catholic Church must be the most badly governed institution in the world. Belloc was right when he described the Church as an “institute run with such knavish imbecility that if it were not the work of God it would not last a fortnight.”

  • Enough

    I think it would be much more appropriate to visit the Pope in Prision where he belongs

  • Anonymous

    mrpants, you say that Ireland is still a very Christian country.  That may be true but that is very different from saying that Ireland is a very Roman Catholic country.  The vatican and some bishops of Ireland have shown some very un-Christian tendencies. 

  • Anonymous

    Michael Petek, I think it is unfair to say that the nation, Ireland has decided to turn away from God.  As I have seen it, the nation of Ireland, or at least Mr Kenny has decided that the clergy of the Roman Catholic church, while in Ireland must adhere to the legitimate laws of Irelend.  That they may be turning away from the vatican does not mean they are turning away from God.   

  • Anonymous

    I agree that Ireland’s problems, which magnifies the same problems of other countries, began centuries ago.  I do not agree that the vatican is finally getting it’s act together.  I believe they are still tryinbg too hard to stay on their throne, maintain their self perception and maintain their cash flow from the world. 

  • Anonymous

    Not quite as morally and spiritually bankrupt as the UK and EU. They don’t have the blood of millions of innocent unborn babies on their hands…..yet!

  • Fr Thomas Poovathinkal

    VERY GOOD IDEA; PLEASE APPEAL TO OUR POPE.

    Fr Thomas Poovathinkal

  • Fr Thomas Poovathinkal

    SORRY SIR. YOU ARE NOT IN TOUCH WITH REALITY.

    POPE BENEDICT IS DOING HIS BEST; THE IN-BETWEENERS ARE CREATING DELAY AND HINDERANCES.

     IF YOU ARE AN IRISH, BE POSITIVE AND DO SOMETHING POSITIVE  JOINING OTHERS WHO LOVE THE CHURCH.

    Fr Thomas Poovathinkal

  • Parasum

    “The Pope has apologised” – saying sorry =///= showing it by actions. He may be part of the answer; but he is also part of the problem. “[D]rastic reform”, or reform of some kind, is what is needed. It is very easy to criticise someone from a distance – but he is the only person in the Church who can make the necessary changes, because only he has the authority; there is no use in coming up witn good ideas if they are disapproved by the Pope.

    Is there any hope for Ireland ? Definitely. The danger is that all this mess will be buried or ignored by those who want to hear no more of these things. That would almost be worse than the scandals themselves – the present moment can be a moment of grace for Church & country alike, if people have the wit to let it be one. If this stuff is buried ASAP, how can that happen ?

  • Rory Pengel

    Dolly, can you please be specific about your evidence of how “the Pope was involved in covering up the abuse and torture off children”…because no one else has shown any proof of this claim.

  • Nat_ons

    So, let me see if I understand you; You want the church catholic in Ireland to be smashed, broken up, and rebuilt as something else ..

    This is the vanity of iconoclasm – or public grandstanding – taken to the logical extreme of terror. It always starts with political anti-clericalism, it always ends in God’s people, the church, suffering more. Purgation comes with a fiery test, on faith in this life on deeds in the next; smashing, crashing, and destroying what one dislikes only placates the fleshly will – however necessary the cleansing may be.

    No the much abused church catholic in Ireland does not need to be torn down, asunder, or in public, Christ has already been riven thus in his body.

    Be angry, yes, but do not sin; the type of iconoclastic mayhem that appeals to politics has no place in the body of Christ – discipline, even severe discipline, does. Adding to the horror afflicting the Catholicism in Ireland, all but totally self-inflicted, is simply to add further injury to the woeful insult. It is that of the Accuser let loose to prowl with devouring appetite, whom we must resist, not least in purging this spirit in ourselves (before seeking to pluck it out from others) .. ripping out Catholicism from the life of Ireland is not a vain threat, it has been tried before, and failed because whatever its hierarchical faults the people of God resisted it: what would you have done with that dwindling breed now, one wonders. 

  • Confused of Chi

    “Many Irish Catholics are furious with the Church”. Who is the ‘Church’? Let us be clear, us or the hierarchy?

  • Helmut Leopoldt

    YES, THERE IS HOPE FOR IRELANDIt is just over 840 years since the conflict between Henry II and Thomas Becket. How strange that virtually the same conflict between Church and State should raise it’s head again with Enda Kenny. Irish history shows that there always has been deep conflict between the Catholic Church and the Irish people e.g. Daniel O’Connell, Parnell, James Joyce and many, many more who left Ireland in disgust. The Catholic Church has oppressed the Irish people more than the Invaders, who were in fact not invaders at all, but invited guests. (regardless of what Irish history books say) FROM MY HISTORY NOTESPope Anastasius IV sent an envoy to Ireland in 1151 asked the Irish Bishops for military help in the Second Crusade that was going badly The synod of Bishops held the council of Kells in 1152 and refused to help and they gave him a curt response. In 1154 Pope Adrian IV begged the Irish for assistance, but again they said no. In 1155, three years after the Synod of Kells Adrian IV published the Papal Bull ‘Laudabiliter’,(permission to invade Ireland) which was addressed to King Henry II of England. Adrian urged Henry to invade Ireland to bring the Irish Catholics to obedience under the Roman system. [That was the problems then and it is the problem now]Henry II was preoccupied with family feuds and the war in France and it was not important to him at that time. One of the Kings of Ireland was called Dermot McMurrough the King of Leinster who thought that he was entitled to be the High King but he lost his kingdom when he was deposed by Rory O’Connor. To recover his kingdom, Dermot MacMurrough solicited help from King Henry II of England. However Henry was far too busy with affairs of state mainly Thomas Beckett and the Catholic Church together with family turmoil and the war in France. Henry II delegated the task of helping Dermot McMorrough to Richard de Clare, the 2nd Earl of Pembroke, also known as Strongbow. Under Strongbow, the first invasion of Ireland happened in September 1169 and Rory O’Connor was disposed as High King . Dermot MacMurrough then became The High King of Ireland for a short time. However, there was a fly in the ointment insofar that Dermot McMorrough’s daughter Aoife married Strongbow . It has been alleged that Aofie and Strongbow planned to murder Dermot McMorrough with the intention of Strongbow becoming the High King of Ireland. Someone sent word to Henry II who perceived this action as a threat to his throne and it was only then that Henry II started to worry and mounted a large invasion in 1171 (840 years ago). Of course Henry II used the ‘Laudabiliter’ as the excuse and said that he was acting with the permission of the Pope and that looked good after the Thomas Beckett murder. . The Irish had brought trouble on themselves, just as they have always done, and  are doing now. The Irish Bishops then were self important and nothing has changed in 840 years.FINALLYAn eminent English Catholic Cardinal summed Ireland up in these words: “In general, the Catholic Church as a whole, is like the Kirov ballet, whereas the Irish Catholic Church is like village idiots performing clog dancing”Synod of Kells Adrian IV published the Papal Bull ‘Laudabiliter’,(permission to invade Ireland) which was addressed to King Henry II of England. Adrian urged Henry to invade Ireland to bring the Irish Catholics to obedience under the Roman system. [That was the problems then and it is the problem now]Henry II was preoccupied with family feuds and the war in France and it was not important to him at that time. One of the Kings of Ireland was called Dermot McMurrough the King of Leinster who thought that he was entitled to be the High King but he lost his kingdom when he was deposed by Rory O’Connor. To recover his kingdom, Dermot MacMurrough solicited help from King Henry II of England. However Henry was far too busy with affairs of state mainly Thomas Beckett and the Catholic Church together with family turmoil and the war in France. Henry II delegated the task of helping Dermot McMorrough to Richard de Clare, the 2nd Earl of Pembroke, also known as Strongbow. Under Strongbow, the first invasion of Ireland happened in September 1169 and Rory O’Connor was disposed as High King . Dermot MacMurrough then became The High King of Ireland for a short time. However, there was a fly in the ointment insofar that Dermot McMorrough’s daughter Aoife married Strongbow . It has been alleged that Aofie and Strongbow planned to murder Dermot McMorrough with the intention of Strongbow becoming the High King of Ireland. Someone sent word to Henry II who perceived this action as a threat to his throne and it was only then that Henry II started to worry and mounted a large invasion in 1171 (840 years ago). Of course Henry II used the ‘Laudabiliter’ as the excuse and said that he was acting with the permission of the Pope and that looked good after the Thomas Beckett murder. . The Irish had brought trouble on themselves, just as they have always done, and  are doing now. The Irish Bishops then were self important and nothing has changed in 840 years.FINALLYAn eminent English Catholic Cardinal summed Ireland up in these words: “In general, the Catholic Church as a whole, is like the Kirov ballet, whereas the Irish Catholic Church is like village idiots performing clog dancing”Laudabiliter’ as the excuse and said that he was acting with the permission of the Pope and that looked good after the Thomas Beckett murder. . The Irish had brought trouble on themselves, just as they have always done, and  are doing now. The Irish Bishops then were self important and nothing has changed in 840 years.FINALLYAn eminent English Catholic Cardinal summed Ireland up in these words: “In general, the Catholic Church as a whole, is like the Kirov ballet, whereas the Irish Catholic Church is like village idiots performing clog dancing”

  • Helmut Leopoldt

    This is not the text I wrote. How come that it has become all jumbled up, and does not make any sense?

  • crouchback

    Helmut have you checked that your clogs are on the right feet..???

  • Michael Petek

    The sign that Ireland has decided to turn away from God came in 2008, when an opinion poll disclosed that 84 per cent of respondents were in favour of legalising same-sex civil partnerships. That is a sure sign of a national apostasy. Mr Kenny’s speech may also have been an expression of guilty anger in the Irish nation. As parents, as social workers, as police officers and as school inspectors, Irish people chose to look the other way as Irish homosexuals in clerical collars took advantage of their children on Irish soil (the victims of abuse were overwhelmingly boys or adolescent males).

    So I suspect a pretext for an official persecution of the Church which will succeed in driving the Church underground as Ireland hurtles on into Europe’s terminal welter of sexual anarchy and social breakdown. It cannot be ruled out that such a persecution will be so fierce and violent that what will be left of the Catholic faithful in Ireland will welcome the British tanks as they roll across the border to liberate them.

  • Anonymous

    Good thinking, Stuart!  Even after the stab in the back from Judas, 3000 converted to the Church on Pentecost.  So it will always be; the mustard seed will continue to grow in spite of all Satan’s efforts to cut it back.

  • Anonymous

    I still contend that is a sign that they may have turned away from the Vatican.  While the Vatican declares that only the RCC speaks for God, some people do not agree with that contention. 

    I have not seen any sign that the RCC is being persecuted, only that some would like for the RCC to adhere to the laws of Ireland. 

    The only Catholics that have been hiding underground are the pedophiles.  You don’t need British tanks to liberate them.  Maybe you need Irish police to imprison them. 

  • Anonymous

    If pope benedict is doing his best and not getting better results, maybe he is not the man for the job. 

  • Shamrock

    Here’s sign of hope in Ireland. A good priest and some fightback on a blog I’ve stumbled across.
    http://frgabrielburke.blogspot.com/2011/01/rte-gets-it-wrong-again.html

  • Joycewannabe

    If all Catholics practised their faith, ie no abortion,no contraception,weekly mass,adoration of the eucharist,confession, daily Rosary and keeping all the commandments the faith in Ireland would be restored.
    This will not happen until Catholics stop being lukewarm and ensure Catholic Truth is taught at all levels.
    Pray the Rosary every day as requested by Our Lady of Fatima in 1917. This destroys heresy. One of the visionaries of Fatima Lucia said there is no problem the Rosary cannot solve. Our Lady of Akita, Japan in 1973 approved by the church said
    As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests.”
    “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres…churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.
    “The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If mankind’s sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”
    Silence no more,Catholic men and women of Ireland, take up your spiritual weapon today and fight for your country. Its in your hands.
    God bless,
    Anne 

  • Diogenes, WA

    Actually, I suspect that one of the reasons that Pope John Paul II discounted much of the allegations of pedophilia was that during the time that Nazis, and subsequently Communists ruled Poland, the authorities would falsely accuse clergy of sexual offences in order to reduce their influence, and Polish Catholics would just discount those rumors because of the source…

  • Martin

    Whilst i appreciate your passion, i think you are taking the visions of Mary a little too literally here.

    Fully understanding that God will judge sin; it is hardly likely that any future judgement will be as total as the flood. It killed everyone on the planet less 8 people and destroyed everything that man had every created for himself. Even the book of Revelations is tame by comparison!

  • Anonymous

    The destruction described will be much worse than the flood in the level of death and infrastructure. Remember that at the flood mankind was still quite young and few relative to today. Civilisation was nowhere near as advanced in terms of physical structure and numbers. I believe the destruction described IS describing the book of revelations, and that certainly is not tame compared to anything.
    Wake up and smell the coffee….things have been getting worse not better since those warnings!

  • Alan

    I think the basic problem is not specifically Ireland, nor is it the Pope; it is the Vatican mentality.  50 years after John XXIII brought in aggiornamento, to sweep away the old ways of thinking, those ways still prevail in the Vatican, which still sees itself as in some way above the civil law.  This kind of mentality is not unique to the Vatican, it exists in other bureaucracies like the civil service or large organisations, in which cover-ups of mistakes are a first refuge.  It is a way of thinking that says that what has been good enough for our forefathers, going back centuries, is good enough for us.  I sometimes think that the Vatican (but not the Pope) is the biggest obstacle faced by the Catholic Church.

  • Martin

    I have no issue with you about things getting worse rather than better but only since after the Flood. The world prior to that was probably as bad or worse than it is now. (less probably abortion). You are however refering to numbers rather than percentages. From memory i believe about 1/3 of the earth survives the events of revelation, (prior to judgement) rather than the 8 that survived the flood….A house was still a house, family were still family, people were still people. We are not what we own in the the way of advancement. We are and were the same as them.The flood was more total in regard to the percentage of people killed. Numbers are debatable as the flood destroyed the evidence so i wont argue against you on that one.

    As to comparing the comments of Mary to revelation however, what are your thoughts on the fol:

    If the description of the vision of Mary IS the same event as revelation then there is an issue with what Mary is saying about it. Because she seems to be offering a way out of the event happening.

    Firstly, what is revelation about?

    The description in revelation is in summary the rise of the anti-christ, the rebellion of mankind against God by following Satan and God’s judgement on those that follow him. It is about Jesus coming back to rule with all the saints that have ever lived and bringing his kingdom in the fullest sense to a reality on earth. It is an event that has already been ordained and will happen regardless of human will.

    Secondly what does it seem Mary is implying IF it is to do with revelation?

    Firstly:

    The comments above indicate that the event described can be stopped by the reduction of human sin and repentance. The visions within Revelation however are triggered by the coming of the Anti-Christ (Rev 6:2) not ununified human activity/sin. It is logical therefore to say that regardless of the state of humanity, there will be a point where he (the Anti-Christ), is born and allowed to grow up in order to fufill what God has ordained (i.e a moment in time when God has decided for him to be born). Man’s sin may effect the amount of followers he has but it will not stop the event taking place. This will be Gods decision alone.

    Could we delay the event? I am not totally sure that we can. I believe God has set a date when he will bring everyone to account. I will not however discount the possibility.

    Could we stop it? No. This event will come regardless of praying against it. Actually The Lord’s Prayer seems to contradict this attitude, “Your Kingdom come”. It is something we have to go through, rather than fear the event we should be looking at the future result.

    Secondly:

    As to human beings being in a position where there is no longer a pardon for them and therefore open to the punishment described i have several comments and it has to do with whom Mary is talking about:

     1.   If you are refering to how God deals with the world in General, then yes, God always deals with sin when it reaches its fufillment. That however conflicts with what is recorded above, how does the secular world confess and Repent and therefore avoid the situation described? 

          a.   That can only happen if the sin is confessed in the name of Christ. It is impossible for a none christian to effectively repent of sin, because they have no one to repent too or through. They can only regret it. So unless Mary is refering to the Church, it will be impossible to stop the events described happening. Which goes back to my comment that she seems to be offering a way out where there is none.

    So in summary:

    Why would Mary say the events can be avoided through repentance IF the event is describing revelation and is ordained for the second coming of Jesus Christ?

    what are your thoughts?

    I will allow you a coffee before you start (lol)