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The battle on abortion should not be about incremental gains in Parliament

Pro-lifers should start by saying that abortion is intrinsically evil and fight on that principle

By on Monday, 19 September 2011

A Pro-life Day with Mary could be organised annually (Photo: Mazur/catholicchurch.org.uk)

A Pro-life Day with Mary could be organised annually (Photo: Mazur/catholicchurch.org.uk)

I am very much hoping that the parish priest of the parish “not a million miles from where I live” did not read my last blog about hymn singing and the merits or demerits of Kevin Mayhew’s hymnal compared with that compiled by the London Oratorians. I say this because, by a strange coincidence, we did sing Faith of Our Fathers yesterday at Mass (which will please “leprechaun himself” who posted about it). I am also grateful to Parasum who enlightened me about the translation of “bonae voluntatis”. I still prefer “Fathers” to the suggested “forbears” which, though gender-correct and scanning, lacks the personal warmth and other connotations (such as the phrase “Fathers of the Church”) denoted by the word “Fathers”. And I am sure the magnificent St Margaret Clitherow would not have been bothered about it.

Anyway, this blog is not intended to be about sexism in the wording of hymns. It is about the pro-life issue (again). As people know, the third stanza of Fr Faber’s great hymn runs: “Faith of our Fathers Mary’s prayers/ Shall win our country back to Thee/ and through the truth that comes from God/England shall then indeed be free.” As I sang it I began to think, “This is all pious pie in the sky stuff. Look at the annual abortion toll in this country. Our Lady must be weeping about it – but there is nothing she can do. We are lost.”

This is, of course, a counsel of despair that sometimes distracts one during Mass (which is the supreme enactment of the counsel of hope). Then I sternly told myself to chuck the gloom; “Mary’s prayers” are the most powerful prayers of all, and of course she can win – if we turn to her in the right way. This led my thoughts to a recent blog of Damian Thompson concerning the Dorries amendment, in which he candidly explained the destructive and uncharitable in-fighting that goes on between X, Y and Z in the pro-life movement. This is itself a scandal that must cry to heaven.

Having given support to Spuc, Life, the Right to Life and other pro-life bodies in the past, I now support the Good Counsel Network as it strikes me as the most prayerful and the most Catholic of all the pro-life groups. I do not mean to be critical of the others, who all do good work; but although this abortion issue must be fought out in Parliament it has to be more than a political issue where one tries for incremental gains, small victories, employs strategies and the like. Yes, we all need to pray to Our Lady: but I can’t believe that she would sanction the incremental approach, ie saving some babies at the expense of others, or fixing a time limit on when abortions can or cannot take place.

Pro-lifers often cite, in their own defence, the example of the abolitionists of the slave trade, saying it took Wilberforce 20 years to win the abolition of the infamous and hugely prosperous slave trade. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think that Wilberforce and his friends did not go for incremental gains – saving the lives of some slaves but not others – in his long struggle for abolition. He showed the public pictures of the appalling slave ships together with a chained black slave (with the caption “Am I not your brother?”) and declared that slavery should be abolished because it was intrinsically evil. By this analogy we pro-lifers must start by saying that abortion is intrinsically evil and fight politically on that principle.

Back to “Mary’s prayers”: if this isn’t already done, why don’t all the pro-life groups get together for an annual “Pro-Life Day with Mary”? This would be different from the broad Day for Life established in the dioceses by the bishops some years ago and also from the usual “Days with Mary” that are popular up and down the country. It would be an annual event specifically for all the pro-life groups and their supporters, Christian or not; when all these individual and splinter groups bury their grievances and mutual suspicions for a whole day, to pray together under the aegis of Our Lady.

The day could involve Confession (very important), the Rosary, singing Marian hymns, as well as Mass and Benediction. I would be against “focus group” discussions on an occasion like this; the whole emphasis should be on prayer, contrition for past in-fighting, and openness to what Our Lady directs. It should take place in London, the seat of Parliament, and could include a procession around Parliament Square, holding banners of Our Lady of Guadalupe, patroness of the unborn.

What do you think?

  • Anonymous

    I’m sorry ma’am but at present the situation is ludicrous…

    On the political scene our Pro-Life activists have won nothing – rather to the contrary every time they have sought to make an amendment it has given an opportunity for the pro-Abortion lobby to push forward even more murderous policies which become adopted by government. We now have a systemic eugenic abortion to birth for any reason at all together with infanticide for any child with special needs requiring even minor medical treatment  [their illness not killing them ; rather the removal of nutrition and hydration - e.g. a child born with a hole in the heart or a downs' syndrome child born with a twisted bowel]

    On the Church scene we have very enthusiastic amateurs and youngsters promoting events such as ‘forty days for life’ , prayer vigils, conferences etc but this invariably involves the same like-minded people making the same statements in the same places; admittedly campaigning outside abortuaries can save the few and thank God for it and the devotion of those individuals – but – in the long run it remains an exercise in futility while hundreds of thousands are slaughtered every year.

    As a Catholic Church we should be at the forefront of safeguarding and promoting the sanctity of life – our journals and newspapers should be at the heart of the battle – they are not.

    The Conference of Bishops should have Life as their prime directive: It has not – rather it has collaborated with the enemies of life allowing Connexions into Catholic schools – employing pro-abortionists within its offices – even to the extent of having an ex-MP who voted for abortion as deputy of the CESEW; hiring a woman who organised mobile abortuaries in Africa to be the co-ordinator of the papal visit; employing an environmental spokewoman who has repeatedly promoted and advocated population control in the developing [and developed world] We even had a National Youth day which promoted ‘environmental sustainability’ and handed out literature and recommended texts which advocated population control….and continuing to allow the Tablet- a rag which has advocated abortion, euthanasia, contraception and extramarital sexual activity – to use the name of Catholic.

    Conference has not merely refused to speak out in defence of the sanctity of Life it has instead defiantly supported and promoted the Culture of death ; be it through the backdoor via the HFEA bill or the HSE Bill [let's not forget Oona Stannard despicably helped draft proposals which prevented the Catholic moral teaching on abortion, contraception and extramarital sex  being taught to Catholic children anywhere outside a religion class]
    or the mental capacity act or the recommendations on assisted dying [Archbishop Smith applauded - yes applauded - the 'clarification' which brought euthanasia onto the statute books by the back door] and yes, why not mention the Liverpool care pathway which actuates the decision of the Bland case – anyone unable to speak for themselves can now be starved and desiccated to death at the whim of the doctors or their next of kin.

    The most deplorable crime of all must be the introduction of Connexions into Catholic schools…do I need to repeat the scandal that our Bishops have now allowed a process into Catholic schools which gives sex advice to the underage, provides them with contraception and abortifacients and abortion referrals and promotes extra-marital sex and same-sex activity? If a teenager is self-harming or contemplating suicde – the Connexions confidentiality clauses forbids ANYONE in a school from notifying the child’s parents – and if a concerned head teacher or school nurse should attempt to do so they may face prosecution!!! Even if a 15 year old girl is being escorted to the Hospital for an abortion a teacher is forbidden by law to inform that child’s parents that she has been raped!!! [ironically if the girl attempts to continue with the pregnancy THEN the parents can be notified as they have a legal right to be informed about 'refusal of medical treatment' and can force the child to have an abortion against her will]

    Yes – this is what’s happening in Catholic Schools across the land….

    The ONLY way to make ANY difference in the Country is to have an ardent, active, vociferously stridently pro-Life Church…

    It is to all our shame and unimaginable scandal that this is not the case in this country…

    I ask the question – by signing up to the Liverpool Care pathway and permitting Connexions into Cathoic Schools  – have our Bishops conspired with a Latae Sententiae excommunicable act under canon 1329#2 ? I know there will be some legalists out there who will say it only applies to direct intervention – but WHY is it an excommunicable act to participate in the one grave sin – and not equally or more gravely heinous and deplorable to have conspired in the murder of the many?

    I’m sorry if people think I’m being hyperbolic – but could somebody PLEASE tell me why this is allowed to continue – business as usual – Bishops continuing to act nonchalantly as if they have not a care in the world when they have conspired in the signing of the death warrants of their neighbour.

    What’s going on? Have we all gone mad?
    This is happening NOW!
    And everyone’s acting as if it’s ‘business as usual’…

    Why hasn’t every Catholic in the land called out to the Pope to do something?
    Oh wait – let’s not forget – he did try to do something – He ordered cardinal Cormac to put a stop to the abortion referrals and abortifacient prescriptions at the St John & Elizabeth – EIGHT YEARS AGO!!! Yet it still continues…

    Now the rest of you can harp on about summorum pontificum and the ordinariate and how wonderful the papal visit was and how we’re on the eve of a wonderful new catholic restoration where there’s such a hope in the young who actually know their latin and theology and really seem to care about their faith…

    …well I’m sorry but we are not going to get anywhere while there’s this hulking great mammoth in the room…
    How many constantly whine on about the scandal of the warwick street masses?
    Or the oratory going to pot [incidentally Fr Richard's resigned - driven to a nervous breakdown by we all know who! Cue the Birnimghm three becoming the Birmingham multitude..]
    Or isn’t it scandalous what X, Y or Z cleric gets up to? [and yes Bishops et al - we do know what our more flagrant clerics are up to - we just have the courtesy,decency and unswerving loyalty to keep our mouths shut - that's why you never made the front pages of the tabloids]

    Well just stop for one minute – do you think ANY of this is going to be resolved while we have a Bishops’ Conference which can’t even stand by the Sanctity of Life?

    GET YOUR PRIORITIES RIGHT!!!!!

    A Pro-Life Church is the keystone – the prime directive – it HAS to be the mandatory first principle….

    So please let’s do SOMETHING – ANYTHING – to make this happen.

    Then we can have every first friday as a Life day dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe and the sacred heart and every saint going….

    But praying for the pro-Life cause while our Consecrated Leaders in Prayer are [ignorantly, negligently or inadvertently] working against it?
    Is farcical!

                                      ..

  • Paula

    I think that you are right. It is completely bonkers that there are so many prolife charities in this country seemingly trying to go in different directions. I understand that some of them have different areas of expertise such as in education or giving shelter to women and babies but I think that we are getting to the moment in history where is imperative to unite and fight the cause. There is a prolife group which you did not mention called abort67 which used exactly the same tactics as the slavery fight however many times hey are protesting peacefully they get arrested. Why? Don’t know.
    The conference idea is brilliant, again you did not mention Viva la Vida prolife conference which happened at WYD Madrid. Again we should be looking at this type of conference happening in he UK maybe close to the parliament or the centre of London somewhere. Regards P

  • Anonymous

    And they will fail. In politics there is no point in losing.

    The Lib Dems made a habit of it, and therefore there influence on the lives of the British public has been minimal.

  • Oconnordamien

    It is very easy while reading blogs like this, and many of their comments, that really the main interest is (catholic) empowerment. The suggestions provided will have no affect on abortion rates for a simple reason. They   only attract the notice of people who would never consider a termination.

    If the main aim was purely to reduce abortion rates, it must first require the number of unwanted pregnancies to be reduced. The shining example to follow is the Dutch model,as they have the lowest rate of abortion, teen pregnancy and STD’s in Europe. They achieve this with openness and education for young people, acceptance of sexuality and of course excellent contraceptive use. Most important of these is that young Dutch children are thought from a young age to respect their own and other people’s bodies. Despite what many may think abstinence is a large part of this. The message is wait until you are completely ready, don’t give in to pressure and then if you don’t want a baby (or an STD) use the double dutch method.

    Now of course I don’t expect many to agree on a catholic site but the evidence shows that catholic methods don’t work. In the more catholic Southern Europe abortion rates are far higher than in the less catholic north.
    (The UK is the exception but I feel much of that can be blamed on the “drinking culture”). As to making abortion illegal, well a look at the statistics for illegal abortion rates in South America and Christian Africa shows that abortions there are far more prevalent, and far more destructive to both foetus and mother.

  • Oconnordamien

    If I may clarify “far more destructive to both foetus and mother.”

    Abortions obtained illegally by their nature have no time limits which of course results in the death of viable babies by brutal methods such as insertion of sharp objects, douches of toxic liquids or purposeful trauma to the abdomen. This can often lead to the death of a mother who very often has many living children.

    Illegal abortion is far more destructive than legislated, medically supervised termination.

  • Oconnordamien

    I think your comment was a little too broad, not hyperbole. I think if you feel passionate about the subject you are right to show it. But if I may point to two of the points I think you were making.

    As to the views or political position taken by bishops or others within the church as to canon law I, as with many others, would not venture an opinion. Indeed we would just see it as an internal church workings.

    The education of children in sexual matters, counselling and health advice in schools, services provided by hospitals and availability and education of contraceptives, well these are of a public interest. If any catholic institution decides to accept money from a secular government it must obey secular rules. 

    If you accept public money you should provide to all the public all the services they are legally allowed to ask of you. That is simply what you are being paid for. If it goes against you conscience, then by all means back out of the services and hand them to secular authorities as with adoption agencies or don’t volunteer to provide them or do the job, as in selling the pill or nursing in an abortion clinic. 

  • Anonymous

    You’re of course right about the appalling state of affairs Paul.
    However, you are surely wrong about Francis’ suggestion – it could well be the way out of the mess. Only God can save us.
     

  • Anonymous

    @Oconnordamien.
    Medically supervised murder superior to medically unsupervised murder? There has to be a better alternative.

  • Oconnordamien

    Yes there is, the majority of my post spoke of it. 

  • Anonymous

    @Oconnordamien Replying to your post: ‘Yes there is, the majority of my post spoke of it.”

    I think it could be argued that contraception (which I think is what you are arguing for in order to reduce abortion) has increased promiscuity and therefore increased the number of abortions, since all contraceptives fail to some degree and therefore the number of unintended conceptions will increase in absolute terms owing to increased sexual activity.

  • Anonymous

       @ Mr O Connor….Of course the only real way to avoid trauma to the mother and death to the pre-born is to not have an abortion. Simples.

  • sandygrounder

    “the Good Counsel Network…the most Catholic of all pro-life groups.”

    There is also the Cardinal Winning Pro Life Initiative.

  • Oconnordamien

    Seeing as promiscuity and sexual activity has increased in countries without access to contraception for decades, (Ireland, Spain, Latin and South America, Africa and former USSR), would show that evidence strongly indicates that availability of contraception is a fairly small mitigating factor. As to the efficiency of contraception, well I indicated the double dutch method which leads to so few “accidents” as to make it as close to perfect as possible.

    But you missed my point. So I repeat.

    “The shining example to follow is the Dutch model,as they have the lowest rate of abortion, teen pregnancy and STD’s in Europe. They achieve this with openness and education for young people, acceptance of sexuality and of course excellent contraceptive use. Most important of these is that young Dutch children are thought from a young age to respect their own and other people’s bodies. Despite what many may think abstinence is a large part of this. The message is wait until you are completely ready, don’t give in to pressure and then if you don’t want a baby (or an STD) use the double dutch method.”

    Education which teaches self respect is the key, that model REDUCES promiscuity, HIGHERS the age of first sexual activity and REDUCES abortion rates. 

    So I would ask where are my facts wrong? And do you think adopting this model, whether you find it distasteful or not , will lower abortion rates. I have shown evidence it will.

  • Oconnordamien

    A provocative and factually untrue statement. You ignore the actuality of miscarriages, stillbirths and life threatening births to try to score political points on a hugely important subject. Simples.

    You also don’t address whether any of my suggestions would lower the abortion rate which surely is what we all want to do. 

  • Foot Soldier

    Abortion took place before it was legal!
    Elimination of abortion is a continuous war and will never be completely won until judgment day.
    Incremental victories are the only ones that we can win and we shouldn’t walk away from the battles that will achieve them.

  • ms Catholic state

    Apparently….the abortion rate in Croatia dropped by 80% since the fall of communism there.  This is not a well publicised fact…..but if the figures are true…..then abortion rates have dropped dramatically.  Why?!….I don’t know and I don’t know if anybody has done research on this.

    Generally I am totally pessimistic about abortion…..but Croatia shows this shouldn’t necessarily be the case.  At this stage I believe only Our Lady can crush the head of the abortion industry.  Our attempts have failed miserably.  Maybe the acknowledgement of our helplessness and God’s might is all we have left now.

  • ms Catholic state

    Here is just one of a number of online articles on Croatia’s dramatic abortion rate drop.
    http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/9406/1/Abortion-in-Croatia-is-Down-90-Since-1989.html

  • Anonymous

    @Oconnordamien. I wouldn’t have any difficulty with the following parts of your statement:
    “Most important of these is that young Dutch children are [taught] from a young age to respect their own and other people’s bodies. Despite what many may think abstinence is a large part of this.” and “Education which teaches self respect is the key, that model REDUCES promiscuity, HIGHERS the age of first sexual activity and REDUCES abortion rates.” Teaching about sex belonging within marriage would be a complementary measure.

  • ms Catholic state

    Availability of contraceptives greatly increases promiscuity and undermines traditional values.  Availability of contraception also weakens self control and virtue.

    As they say…..the best method of birth control……is self control.

  • Oconnordamien

    The drop in abortion across all the former Eastern Bloc has fallen. The reason is well documented, they now have access to contraceptives. In Russia 20 years ago abortion was double the rate it is now. 

    It is not just communist regimes, in Franco’s catholic state illegal abortions where three times the number of legal abortions numbers now. 

  • ms Catholic state

    Have you got proof of that?!  and why has the abortion rate fallen by 90% in Croatia…..but only 50% in Russia.  In the West……where contraceptives have become freely available….abortion rates have soared too….so your thesis doesn’t add up.

    Also have you got proof about abortion rates in Franco’s Catholic State.  I can’t accept such an accusation without definitive proof.

  • Anonymous

    @ Mr O Connor…Well its always good to stick to the subject at hand. ie direct abortion. Miscarriages, stillbirths are natural. Direct abortion has but one goal. To end the life of the pre-born.
     I know of no maternal illness that can be cured by abortion.

  • Oconnordamien

    Indeed lets stick to the subject at hand.

    So I would ask where are my facts wrong? And do you think adopting the Dutch model, whether you find it distasteful or not , will lower abortion rates. I have shown evidence it will.

  • Anonymous

    @ Mr O Connor.
                             You you don t actually provide any facts. But that aside, I have no quibble with contraception. I think Paul V1s total ban was an error. Though I think that people take risks with it, and abortion is a safety net for some when it fails.
     You seem to know a lot about the Netherlands. I would love the facts and figures. But we must bear in mind that it is one country and may be the exception that proves the rule.

  • Anonymous

    @OconnordamienIn reply to your comment: “do you think adopting the Dutch model, whether you find it distasteful or not , will lower abortion rates. I have shown evidence it will.

    No you haven’t shown evidence. What you have done is made a claim. Evidence would be a link to some statistics.

    Here’s one piece of evidence from John Smeaton of SPUC:
    Professor David Paton, who holds a chair in Economics at Nottingham University, has shown in a paper entitled “The economics of family planning and underage conceptions” (this paper is not available free online, but if you would like a copy please contact me) that family planning, and increased access to it, increases the likelihood that teenagers will engage in sexual activity. Prof. Paton says: “I find no evidence that greater access to family planning has reduced underage conceptions or abortions. Indeed, there is some evidence that greater access is associated with an increase in underage conceptions…”
    http://spuc-director.blogspot.com/2008/07/young-people-reap-governments-bitter.html

  • Oconnordamien

    You still ignore the important question as to how to lower abortion rates.

    I picked Holland because it usually has the lowest rate of abortion in Europe. All the other countries with low abortion rates have similar policies. That is a fact. Their education models achieve this with openness and factual education for young people, acceptance of sexuality and of course excellent contraceptive use. Most important of these is that young Dutch children are thought from a young age to respect their own and other people’s bodies. Despite what many may think abstinence is a large part of this. The message is wait until you are completely ready, don’t give in to pressure and then if you don’t want a baby (or an STD) use the double dutch method. Again fact.

    As to actual numbers the WHO is a good source. You can quite easily verify numbers there. I don’t list numbers in comments as they they are tedious to compile and even more tedious to read when simply being used to make a point.

    As to my familiarity with the Netherlands, I am very fond of the country and love to visit my friends who live there.
    I will admit some of my knowledge stems from speaking to my friend’s teenage kids.  But despite the source the information is true. 

  • Oconnordamien

    Although by no means complete here are some numbers to indicate the truth of my comments:
    The last figure indicates rates per thousand.Netherlands, 22,4006.5Belgium,  14,600 6.8Germany,  130,900 7.6England & Wales, 167,900 15.6

  • Oconnordamien

    I’ve provides some figures from the WHO to Teigitur above. I’m afraid any information from SPUC is far too biased for serious consideration. I prefer to look sources which are as neutral as possible.

  • Anonymous

    @ Mr O Connor.
                             There is no lack of access to contraception in England and Wales. So I wonder why the abortion rate is so high. No respect for themselves or others I presume. Not massive differences between the other countries. Very interesting.

  • Oconnordamien

    Although it is only a guess I think the alcohol culture in the UK is mostly to blame, although that is linked to the respect issue too. Other countries in Europe consume large amounts, but the way they do it is much different. In general it is frowned upon to be seen drunk on the streets in Germany, Belgium, Austria and other beer drinking bar/pub going countries.
    I often wonder how many of the pregnancies are a direct result of “drunken hook-ups”. Contraception tends often to be pretty much forgotten in those circumstances.

    I need to correct one of the things I so strongly asserted earlier. My apologies as my statistics were a few years out of date. It seems that the economic downturn in Ireland has reduced the number of women travelling to the UK for abortions. Combined with the fact that the downturn is thought to have led to an increase in countries where it’s legal, it seems as though Ireland now has the lowest rate in Europe.

    So the right result in one country even if for the wrong reasons. Not to mention the completely wrong effect in other countries.

  • Oconnordamien

    I have no idea about Croatia, I’ve not read much of the country and never been there. As to Russia, although a 50% drop is not a 90% it is still better than a 10% drop or no drop at all. In Europe the economic downturn is thought to a large factor in the recent increases as is general population growth but I admit I don’t have a good answer, I was trying to suggest realistic ways to reduce rates by looking at countries with historically lower rates.

    As to Spain, there are 100,000 legal each year despite them having relatively tight laws. Under Franco the estimated number per year was 300,000. Even with a large error margin of 10% of the estimste that is very welcome drop. 

  • Anonymous

    @OConnorDamien
    The problem with seeing contraception as a means of reducing abortion is that the end does not justify the means if the means is immoral per se.

  • ms Catholic state

    I’m not talking about recently…..I’m talking about the past 40 years in Europe.  When the pill became available….abortion followed soon afterwards….and abortion rates have been climbing ever since….even though the powers that be practically force contraception on people any chance they get!!

    Please don’t be twist facts.  Spain has one of the most liberal abortion laws in Europe.  A proper disgrace they are.  I want proof of abortion rates in Franco’s Spain.  Don’t think you can twist your way around!!

  • ms Catholic state

    I’m not talking about recently…..I’m talking about the past 40 years in Europe.  When the pill became available….abortion followed soon afterwards….and abortion rates have been climbing ever since….even though the powers that be practically force contraception on people any chance they get!!

    Please don’t be twist facts.  Spain has one of the most liberal abortion laws in Europe.  A proper disgrace they are.  I want proof of abortion rates in Franco’s Spain.  Don’t think you can twist your way around!!

  • Anonymous

    @ MR O Connor.
                                    I am so glad the Irish are killing fewer unborn Children. Children are the only guarantee of a future, well on this rotating spec of dust anyway.

  • Anonymous

    @ MR O Connor.
                                    I am so glad the Irish are killing fewer unborn Children. Children are the only guarantee of a future, well on this rotating spec of dust anyway.

  • Anonymous

    @ MR O Connor.
                                    I am so glad the Irish are killing fewer unborn Children. Children are the only guarantee of a future, well on this rotating spec of dust anyway.

  • Anonymous

    @ MR O Connor.
                                    I am so glad the Irish are killing fewer unborn Children. Children are the only guarantee of a future, well on this rotating spec of dust anyway.

  • Anonymous

    @ MR O Connor.
                                    I am so glad the Irish are killing fewer unborn Children. Children are the only guarantee of a future, well on this rotating spec of dust anyway.

  • Oconnordamien

    You did not mention a time frame in your comment. I repeat that I didn’t try to explain the rise in abortions until you mentioned them.

    You can verify my numbers under the Franco regime, as I explained there can be a margin of error in estimates but my point remains true, until then it’s quite rude to accuse me of twisting facts. Up until July of last year Spain had some of the strictest laws in Europe. There are no definitive figures yet to how the relaxing of law will affect numbers but I will quote The Telegraph, hardly a atheist mouthpiece….

    “Abortions decline in Spain since new law a year ago.

    A year after Spain brought in a controversial reform of its abortion laws, statistics show a decline in the number of terminations, putting paid to fears from opponents that rates would rocket”.

  • Oconnordamien

    Just for clarity, do you consider contraception not inherently immoral but because you believe it lends to immoral behaviour you would object to it?

  • Oconnordamien

    You did it again. You made something like a sound-bite as if crowing success while ignoring the reason behind it. Of course it’s better that there are less abortions by Irish women but can the lack of funds for women to travel be hailed as a success? 

    If current trends are an indication the  “the Irish are killing fewer unborn Children” will be dwarfed by the rise in abortions as women realise they cannot afford a child/another child across Europe. 

  • Oconnordamien

    I don’t like the term sex education as it is misleading but I think relationship education, including frank honest education should be taught from an appropriate age. The model I support does indeed teach sex within marriage as an ideal but it realises that in the vast majority of cases that is not the first sexual experience. 

    I think an important part of that is teaching about homosexuality also. I do realise here we’ll part any common ground. On this I admit personal experience, I’ve seen gay relationships just as enduring as straight and straight just as promiscuous as gay. People are free now to find the relationship that works for them. 

    And I easily admit many I’ve seen have just left me scratching my head asking “What ?”.

  • Oconnordamien

    Please, we all have the same end in mind , we only differ in the methods to achieve it.

    Please suggest a real way of reducing abortion rates. I will adopt them and beg your forgiveness for being wrong.
    Until then I will advocate imperfect models which show the best results.

    Give me a real proven way to reduce abortion rates and I will be a supporter of it. 

  • Anonymous

    @ Mr O Connor.
                             To be honest whilst the reasons behind less abortions are important, and if possible should be extended. The main thing is fewer unborn are being killed. If thats because of lack of funds, so be it. Its not quite the higher moral ground that someone has actually realised what they are doing is wrong, but, hey, a childs life is saved, so that cannot be a bad thing.
     If people cannot afford children, then there are any amount of ways to prevent pregnancy. Once a new person is procreated,He/she has the same rights as the rest of us.

  • Anonymous

    @Oconnordamien There is a very important point I forgot and that is: the various types of contraceptive pill may also act as abortifacients by making the uterus inhospitable to the newly conceived life. If that is the case, you are advocating a method which reduces surgical abortion by causing chemical abortion.

  • ms Catholic state

    No…you must supply the evidence of your statements please.  And if what you say is true….it must have been the communists that were aborting their children.  Nasty.

    When abortion is legalised…..abortions go up.  When it is criminalised as in Poland….the abortion rate falls.  But happily as in Croatia….sometimes the abortion rate goes down dramatically too.  It is better to criminalise abortion….and give legal protection to the most vulnerable….in the same way it is given to adults.

  • ms Catholic state

    No…you must supply the evidence of your statements please.  And if what you say is true….it must have been the communists that were aborting their children.  Nasty.

    When abortion is legalised…..abortions go up.  When it is criminalised as in Poland….the abortion rate falls.  But happily as in Croatia….sometimes the abortion rate goes down dramatically too.  It is better to criminalise abortion….and give legal protection to the most vulnerable….in the same way it is given to adults.

  • Anonymous

    @Oconnordamien Replying to your query ‘Just for clarity…’. I would say that it is inherently immoral. Although I also think it is plausible to say that it promotes immoral behaviour, that wouldn’t be my chief reason. I also think that statistics are limited in what they can tell us.
    As to inherent immorality, I would see a personalist argument as a strong one: namely that it introduces a contradiction into the marital act (act of intercourse within marriage), for the following reason
    A marital act is an act of complete mutual self giving, but contraception converts it into an act of refusal to give oneself completely.
    If I could put it more clearly, I would say the body is a means of communication, it speaks a language. It says “I give myself entirely to you (the loved one), with all that I am and all my potential, including my creative potential”. But a contracepted act says “I give myself to you entirely….but I do not give myself entirely (I withhold my creative potential). That is a contradiction of the truth and meaning of this act.

    There are other arguments. E.g. : fertility is a sign of health. (If an adult of childrearing age is infertile, we think there is something wrong with them). So it doesn’t seem to make much sense to use a chemical to make some one infertile: that is to make them unhealthy, to deprive them of something which belongs to their proper functioning.

  • Anne

    your analogy with the slave trade is often used but there are others that are more helpful to consider.  For example, a ban on smoking in public places, the removal of section 28, civil partnerships, fox hunting ban.  All political change is achieved through incremental steps.  Wilberforce was no different, the most significant change to prevent the slave trade was banning the Union flag being used on ships.  This meant that slave ships could no longer be protected by the Navy.  Wilberforce also advanced economic arguments to counter prevailing thinking that abolishing the slave trade would bankrupt the country.
    Making significant change is frightening to politicians, it is the role of campaigning groups to provide comfort that change is possible and enjoys widespread support.
    btw - I don’t disagree with the organisations that you choose to support but wanted to challenge your view on political strategy.