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For atheists, death is the only point of life – that is Christianity’s great selling point

While we should, like Steve Jobs, live every day like it was our last, we should never allow our lives to be defined by this ‘one appalling fact’

By on Thursday, 13 October 2011

For atheists, death is the only point of life – that is Christianity’s great selling point

Death is in the air. To be more specific, it is on the air waves. I turned on the car radio last week to hear a recording of a speech that the late Steve Jobs, co-founder and chief executive of the Apple empire, had made in 2005 to the students of Stanford University. In its own way it was electrifying.

Jobs said that when he was 17 he had come across the saying, “If you live each day as though it were your last, some day you will most certainly be right.” Apparently it had made a deep impression on him, leading him to ask himself every day, “If today were the last day of my life would I wish to do what I am now doing?” He went on to tell the students, “Death is the destination we all share. No-one has ever escaped it….Your time is limited so don’t waste it living someone else’s life.” A difficult colleague to work with, Jobs brought an urgency and intensity to his work that clearly contributed to his success.

I don’t know what his listeners made of it. Apparently Jobs had been influenced by Eastern religions; certainly there was a Buddhist element to his thought: the endless cycle of birth and death of which humans are just a part. And his admonition, “Don’t be trapped by dogma which is living with the results of other people’s thinking” lacked a Catholic understanding of the word “dogma”. The recording made me immediately think of the (probably apocryphal) story of a former headmaster of Ampleforth who, when asked by a parent what he was preparing the boys for, answered robustly, “Death.”

Then yesterday morning on Radio 4 there was more of the Grim Reaper: an interview with the novelist Julian Barnes, who is the favourite to win this year’s Man Booker Prize. Barnes wrote in his autobiographical book, Nothing to be Frightened Of, “For me, death is the one appalling fact which defines life; unless you are constantly aware of it, you cannot begin to understand what life is about.” Like Jobs, Barnes is very preoccupied with the subject, telling interviewer Rebecca Jones, “I don’t think we talk or think enough about death.” Describing death as “an eternity of non-existence” he concluded with a mordant half-laugh, “You are only here once.”

My Catholic ears were twitching. For Christians, death is not the point of life; it is “the life of the world to come” that we recite – often so unthinkingly – in the Creed at Mass. St Paul grasped this immediately, knowing that our faith is ‘vain’ without belief in the Resurrection. As it happened, I had a conversation about Jobs’ speech last weekend with my brother-in-law. As with his fellow-atheists, Jobs and Barnes, the finality and vastness of non-existence is troubling to him. I explained that Christians see it differently: this life is simply a preparation for the fullness of life that we hope to experience after death. He could see this might be a consoling thought, a happy illusion, but as he did not believe it he was not consoled.

I sometimes think we Christians don’t emphasise enough to our non-believing friends that the grave is not victorious and that death has no sting. We give assent to the dogma but we don’t live it in our daily lives with the heartfelt urgency that Jobs and Barnes give to thinking of death. If we did, we might possibly convert people like them, terrified of the dreariness of non-being but without hope of an alternative. After all, the atheist Edith Stein was deeply influenced by the example of a Christian friend whose husband had died in the Great War and who, despite her sorrow, was quietly convinced she would meet him again one day.

  • Katherine Andes

    Thanks for a great article and something to think about today. If death is the end, life is all a big joke, or worse a torture chamber for much of humanity. It’s nonsensical and illogical. Creation screams that there is meaning to life … and ultimate justice.

  • Anonymous

    For an atheist, life is the point of life.  Life is not a test to see if we can make it into the supreme leader’s private club.  We are here and should make our lives and the lives of those we care about as good as possible. Medicine, democracy, clean water, plentiful food, comfort, friendship.  These are all the things people can give to people.  The only way one can suggest these come from God is to ignore and denigrate what his fellow man has done.  That Steve Jobs lives as long as he did with his cancer wasn’t God, but doctors.  When the church finds the cure for cancer from the bible that no researcher had ever found, then maybe a God can get some credit, but to steal it before then is vile and cruel.

  • ms Catholic state

    It seems to me that secularists instead of solving problems….bring more problems to the world ie family breakdown STD’s etc.  Secularists view life (and health giving discoveries) as an attempt for a Paradise on earth…while Christians view it as an opportunity to do good.  I’m afraid Paradise on earth is an illusion….and the nearer it seems…the further it slips away.

  • ms Catholic state

    Oh…my mistake….I meant to say secularism and Christianity…..not secularists and Christians.

  • Anonymous

    What is the point to life, if death is the terminal gate to a dark empty void?  This in essence means that we can live life without hope or expectation of a progression beyond this earthly dimension and without repercussions, good or bad, for our actions later on.  To reduce life to a materialistic system of measurement, means that we ignore completely the spiritual life-force or soul which animates us.  Once our earthly life is over, what happens to this animating force or consciousness which once inhabited our bodily form?  One of the most fundamental laws of nature is that energy cannot be destroyed but can be transformed into other forms.  So this begs the question, where does our life-energy go when we exhale our last breath on earth?   This is a question that those of an atheistic turn of mind who believe in only materialistic positivism have to answer. We know from our Catholic Christian Faith that Jesus promised that those who are faithful to His instruction will share Paradise with Him.

  • WSquared

    To say that these things come from God is not to denigrate what one’s fellow man has done at all.  God works through people who choose what is good, what is right.  We see our talents as given to us by God;  we did not create our talents and abilities, rather, we can use them for good or for ill.  So God and our own efforts are not mutually antithetical.  There is no theft there.

  • Petrus Augustinus

    “After all, the atheist Edith Stein was deeply influenced by the example of a Christian friend whose husband had died in the Great War and who, despite her sorrow, was quietly convinced she would meet him again one day” …and turned out to be one of our Saints. :)

  • Anonymous

    This is such a truncated, limited view of life that all we are left with is our material selves in a atomized world with nothing to follow after we depart this life.  Sure we are here to establish the Kingdom of God in this world but our final destination is way beyond it as the resurrection of Jesus Christ proved after His death

  • Anonymous

    Isn’t it kinda ironic that if to an atheist Life is all there is – why are so many of them vociferous strident advocates for Abortion, Euthanasia, Population control etc?

  • Oconnordamien

    For atheists, death is the only point of life.What an oxymoronic statement. Does any one know of a person who believes that? Let alone atheists who believe there is no afterlife so life is the only point of life. Do atheists go through life humming the theme song from MASH in their heads, thinking one minute more then I’ll find the train tracks and make my point by falling on them.To be fair, to the author, the article is a nice life affirming little piece but it shows a lot of simple misconceptions about atheism. Much of the article is of the “Carpe Diem”, live life argumentation we’ve had since Robin Williams movies and coca-cola ads. They the most obvious of platitudes!None addresses the idea that atheists are less afraid of death. Are catholics afraid of judgement in Valhalla? Or any primitive believe system they saw in a tribe in Borneo on BBC2. Just as you do not fear that, we atheists don’t fear your idea. As you face judgement with eternal flames and damnation and torment please tell me how my null existence is worse. I of course won’t be there.I don’t believe in any gods… but part of me wishes that people get the god they deserve.Now that would be supreme justice! 

  • Oconnordamien

    Do you understand what secularism is?

    If you were a christian living in Pakistan, The Middle East or Indonesia you might find yourselves behind a barrier begging for secular values. All the while police can beat you as you are different. But don’t worry as they decide to rape you as an infidel who has no morals by their terms… well they did nothing wrong.

    Please stop being stupid enough to confuse atheism with secularism. They are very different things.

  • Anonymous

        @ Damo….  What God or judgement thereof, do you recon we “deserve” Damo?
      Of Couse I don t believe in atheists!!…lol. Though seriously,  though one comes across them from time to time, and even in heathen Scotland its only time to time,once you scratch the surface, they are rarely atheists per se, but agnostics.Who, are surely, not just atheists without balls, but a fair bit more.

  • Anonymous

    “I sometimes think we Christians don’t emphasise enough to our
    non-believing friends that the grave is not victorious and that death
    has no sting. We give assent to the dogma but we don’t live it in our
    daily lives with the heartfelt urgency that Jobs and Barnes give to
    thinking of death.”

    ## How often is that preached ? And how often are seminarians told that ? If they are told that, they won’t, if ordained, preach it.
     
    And there is the problem that Purgatory has often been preached about as a like Hell, but temporary. It’s probably much easier for Evangelicals to take the victory of Christ over death seriously, than for Catholics to do so, for many reasons, including that.

    I’m afraid of what can come before death, and of bereavement – but of death, not in the least.

  • Anonymous

    Creating Paradise, or a perfect world, or whatever one is to call it, on earth, may not be possible – but the ambition to do so is a noble ambition even so. It’s far better to try, even knowing one will fail, than not to try at all. By trying, one may succeed in making the world better than it was. And that would be a great thing to succeed in doing, even if one could not make the world all that much better – even if one is not a theist or a Christian. STM that if people of any faith, or nonne at all, try to make the world better, we should support them – unless there is good reason not to.  

  • Anonymous

    “This in essence means that we can live life without hope or expectation
    of a progression beyond this earthly dimension and without
    repercussions, good or bad, for our actions later on.”

    ## There’s no reason why atheists cannot love and follow what is good, though. To be an an atheist does not imply being immoral.

  • ms Catholic state

    Many many evil things are done in the name of creating earthly Paradises….and they never work (Thank God).  There is nothing noble about this.  But if we seek to do unto others as we would be done by…..we inadvertently create as near to an earthly paradise as is possible.

    However….this is not what people want to hear.

  • ms Catholic state

    Atheists certainly can do good……but they don’t HAVE to do good.

  • Seraphic Spouse

    “Our lives and the lives of those we care about as good as possible”. Says who? Where did you get that idea? What do you mean by good? Why do you even have a concept of good? Or comfort or friendship? Why do you have those concepts and animals not? 

  • Seraphic Spouse

    That’s interesting…What is the part of you that wishes for supreme justice? Because supreme justice is what we are promised.  

  • Anonymous

    I assume I get those idea from the same place you do.  Empathy, upbringing, social interaction. We learn from parents, friends, and community how to treat each other. An atheist doesn’t have a monopoly or a guarantee that they will be any better than you, but if you start with the idea that you have a special message from a super being that is always right, and even if the actions it requires causes harm, you ignore the harm and follow the message.  Of all the reasons people have for being cruel to each other (greed, tribalism, jealousy, revenge) we don’t need “God told me” added to them.  The Bible hasn’t stopped those reason, it’s simple used as another justification.

    Even though you know that slavery is wrong you also know people have used the Bible to justify it.  Even if they used it incorrectly, why isn’t it clear enough not too?  The US Constitution was able to do in 2 sentences what 31,000+ verses of the Bible can’t.  This isn’t to say the Constitution is perfect, but to point out that the Bible isn’t either, and that you already seem to be more moral than its clearly human authors.

  • Anonymous

    Many people throughout history have foolishly tried to create a perfect world, both secular and religious.  I will completely agree that they end up making things worse rather than better.  But look at the formation of the US.  By breaking away from a Christian government (a monarchy that derived it’s power from it’s Christian church) and establishing that it would not make any laws about religion or interfere with its peoples practices created the free-est, most secure and influential nation that had ever existed.  Letting it’s people devote time to the studies of science, arts and community have produced in 2 hundred years a better world than the thousands of years before could not.

    The founders, even if they were all ardent Christians (not supported), they understood the value of a gov’t NOT founded on religion.  “We The People” was a very specific choice of words.  All other nations on earth had derived its mandate from the divine, but we build ours from our citizens with not a single appeal to a god.  The people of the nation may be Christian, but where did Christ advocate electing leaders by a majority vote, or the use of common law as a fair judicial system?

  • Anonymous

    The US constitution was heavily influenced by the values of the Enlightenment e.g freedom of liberty, belief, conscience etc which in turn can be traced back to Christian, Scriptural roots as exemplified by the bible.  So there you have it, the Bible seems to be ubiquitous in terms of the universal application of it’s tenets.

  • Anonymous

    Atheists are human just like everyone else, and as you say, they are as capable of loving as any one else.  But what is the source of the good that they do and how can it be measured scientifically as in a test tube? Some people might say that it is down to a survival instinct developed in men and women through evolution so that they could progress by sharing their goods etc.  For Christians, good is a quality that comes from the Source of all Creation, namely God in Heaven.  As men and women are made in the image of God, they do positive, selfless deeds to follow His will for them if they are following the right motivational path.  Atheists can do good of course but the motivational factor may differ considerably.  They may not be effected by the belief in an supernatural deity but one has still to ask what is the source of intangible qualities like Good, Love etc.

  • Anonymous

    Which part of the Christian Bible allows for freedom of conscience?  Was it the 1st Commandment, which was punishable by death? Was it in Matthew where Jesus condemned an entire city because they didn’t like his preaching?

    The old line about “God gave us free will” is bunk.  It’s like saying someone with a gun to their head still has a choice.  Wrong.  The gun is there to force them into only one option.  How is that loving mercy?  Where in the entirety of the Bible (and yes, I have read it thoroughly) is anyone rewarded for following their hearts above God’s commands?  What is the ONLY governmental system that is allowed by the Bible?  It sure isn’t democracy!

    The only way you get to democracy (invented by pagan Greece and pagan Indigenous Americans) through the Bible is to re-interpret (always after the fact) some obscure parts and disregard everything the Bible says about God’s wishes and commands.

  • Oconnordamien

    Just an interesting idea that I’ve read in different forms of fiction. Runs along the lines of you get the god you believe in or that gods only exist for the people who believe in them. To me it would seem just if a person were judged by the god they professed to follow. Far more fair than an atheist thrown into a catholic heaven or hell, or a catholic condemned to hell for not following the prophet Mo or indeed a muslim being re-incarnated as a lower animal. 

    Just an interesting concept that some writers in fiction have followed.

  • Anonymous

    Here are two sample quotes to demonstrate how God gave free Choice to those who would listen:

    Joshua 24:15–And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose
    you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers
    served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the
    Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will
    serve the LORD.

    Deuteronomy 30:19–I call heaven and earth to record this day against
    you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and acursing:
    therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

    Note how God tells us that we can CHOSE to serve him or not. He sets out the options and the consequences for each. Thus we have here freedom to chose and no impositions in sight. Jesus never imposed His teachings with any threats of violence but rather proposed them as viable life choices to His audience. Our choices are not unlimited but we are free to choose them. In life there are choices but certain consequences follow if we make the wrong ones e.g life jail terms for murder. So we are given the necessary freedom to follow God’w will or not and democracy best reflects that right in terms of secular government. I grant that democracy received it’s foundations in pagan Athens and other ancient Greek city-states, and even though it is not without flaws, it still is the best form of government by the people, of the people and for the people.

    The Church itself is not a democracy but rather hierarchical, as the truth itself is based on that model. Objective truth cannot be reached by a show of hands and it is above all supposition and guesswork. The Church proposes Her teachings and leaves people free to accept or reject them.

  • Oconnordamien

    That judgement idea is a concept touched on by writers as widespread as Terry Prachet and Neil Gaiman. 

    I have a similar experience with nuns as you do with atheists, I know they exist but I haven’t seen one in years. In fact I starting to form an opinion somewhat like Fr. Dougal’s on the subject.  

  • http://twitter.com/Acleron1 Acleron

    Whereas christians HAVE to do good, they just don’t always do good.

  • Anonymous

    6 billion people. Of that, 1/3 is Christian.  In that there are some 30,000+ seperate denomination, sects and cults.  According to most of the doctrine of these only certian people get salvation, and that is dependent on faith, not works.  Even in Catholicism refusing to adhere to almost any Church doctrine endangers one’s soul.  Why these stats?

    To show that the choice isn’t “this or that”.  It’s lottery, and since God hasn’t been around to correct the ever widening differences among his own religion(s) you are left to: 1. pick what your parents/community told you (faith by geography) 2. investigate and choose. 

    1. is what most people in the world have.  Sure, they can choose 2, but when they are steeped in the culture, they have little other info that lets you make that choice.  2/3 of the population will fail this test/choice.

    Going with 2 will lead you to realize that there are no clear answers.  People who want comfort pick something that sounds comforting.  Those who want justice pick something that sounds vengeful.  People who want truth may never pick anything at all.

    And again, your Deuteronomy verse sounds more like a quote from Goodfellas, than a just God.  Why can’t He give me the same choice he gave Saul?  He knows what would convince me, and it isn’t 3 hand accounts from 2000 years ago with no physical evidence.

    If a single student fails a test with 33% he may not have studied, but if the only 33% of the class passes, it’s the teacher that failed.

  • Anonymous

    @ Damo.
                   Ah Nuns. Well you must live up in the hills of Wicklow. Here in my little town in the west of Scotland there seem to be lots of Nuns, a large convent/ nursing home not 5 mins from us. Though hearing
    Mass there is a little scary! Real nuns( as these are, still wear habits!) usually are.

  • Anonymous

    “Many many evil things are done in the name of creating earthly
    Paradises….and they never work (Thank God).  There is nothing noble
    about this.”

    ## There is nothing noble about seeking to do good to one another ?  I beg to differ – like most people, religious or not. The record of religion in causing hell on earth is not exactly unblemished, so it’s no use pointing out that non-religious people have failed; for so have religions. There is no horror like hatred & murder in the Name of God of Love – for that, Christianity is needed.

    “But if we seek to do unto others as we would be done by….”

    ## And do people need to be religious to do that ? Of course not. People are very often better for not being religious. They are not poisoned by the sacred duty of hating others in the Name of Christ or of JHWH. If they steer clear of quasi-religions like Communism, they should be able to to avoid such nonsense. Christianity is an exceptionally powerful cause of evil, potentially far worse than Nazism & Communism combined. A Christian totalitarian & genocidal tyranny is perfectly conceivable – one day it will probably exist, maybe in the USA; perhaps as Dominionist Reconstructionism.

    Christianity is capable of evil in the measure that it has potential for good, on the principle that “the worst of all corruption is the corruption of what is best”. If Christianity is truly Divine, there is no reason why it cannot also be utterly Satanic. If it can come up with a St.Francis of Assisi – it can come up with a Hitler or a Stalin. Atheism does not have this gigantic potential for evil. Communism and Nazism gain their strength from a religious impulse & a Fundamentalist impulse at that. David Cameron is only a politician;  Hitler was a Messiah & Saviour, Joshua, Jesus, Moses & David in one. Mere politicians & mere unbelievers don’t produce these effects.  Take away the Satanic power within Communism, and there is the possibility of a very good & just secular state; of a genuine manifestation of the Kingdom of God. An atheist state can be a manifestation of the K of G, whether its rulers are theists or not; the  K of G is present where the Will of Christ is effective – faith is not needed for Him to work. A “Catholic state”, OTOH, could be very nasty.

  • Anonymous

    Democracy in some form is much older than its Greek (Athenian ?) form, which in turn is different from the liberal democracy we are familiar with. Democracy of various sorts has a long history within Catholicism – the mediaeval Italian communes come to mind.   

  • Anonymous

    Neither does anyone else – such as Christians. Having freedom not to do X, is not the same as never doing it. 

    Atheists & Christians are in the same boat. Sinking it to get the better of them, harms us too. And contrariwise.

  • Anonymous

    “They may not be effected by the belief in an supernatural deity but one
    has still to ask what is the source of intangible qualities like Good,
    Love etc.”

    Read (for example) Aristotle’s Ethics – there is nothing much about Christian theism as a foundation for ethics there. Or read Epictetus, or Confucius. People have asked such questions, in some form, for thousands of years, and probably always will. Historically, Christianity is just one source of answers, alongside many others.

    Ask an atheist your question – then you might get an answer.

  • Anonymous

    Nuns are lovely horses – or militant feminist pop stars ?

  • Anonymous

    Yes, Rev, I agree with you there are very diverse multiple Faith communities, sects, cults within the very broad world of religious belief.  But there are certain commonalities which unite, especially the monotheistic religions, concerning the rights and wrongs of certain behaviors and the freedom of each to assent or not to God’s call.  Jews and Christians largely agree on the right of each believer to consent or reject the tenets of each religion but each choice is not not value free and comes with consequences.  In contrast Islamic countries have varying degrees of tolerance for the rights of believers to exercise their freedom of consciences, regarding e.g dress-sense, changing religion etc.  This is due to the varied schools of Islamic exegesis concerning their holy books which include the  Koran and Hadiths.
    You say that the quote that I gave you from Deuteronomy indicates an unjust God, but as I have stated the choices can be stark but there are no impositions involved.  Basically it is the difference between living a good, just life and one which is purely dedicated to one’s own selfish, sinful pleasures with total disregard for anybody and anything else.  Your exam analogy is not relevant to the point at hand.  One failure in life does not condemn anyone to perdition but rather a persistent failure to conform one’s life to God’s will despite being fully aware of the consequences of one’s actions.  St Paul compares life to a race, although we stumble and fall, by the Grace of God we can pick ourselves up again:
     “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith” (2 Timothy 4:7).
    Thus we are not judged on just one failure that we may unfortunately experience regarding the moral life, but rather on our dogged determination to overcome our human weaknesses and basing on life squarely on the person of Jesus.

  • Anonymous

    I agree, world religions before and after Christianity have incorporated an ethical based approach to how one should a good life.  Indeed Aristotle did write about a virtuous life which in his view would lead to happiness on the part of anyone who cultivates this behavior.  Indeed the great Doctor, Thomas Aquinas found elements in the Aristotelian outlook in life very conducive to the Christian lifestyle and consequently incorporated them into his great works e.g “Summa Theologica” and is still relevant to Scholastic theology today.  Possibly one can argue that Aristotle was showing the stirrings of Divinely-inspired intuitions but was not consciously aware of their origins.  But Christianity proposes the positive nature of doing good on a rather more profound level which transcends our narrow, egotistical outlook, as the ultimate Source of all Good comes from God, our Creator who sent His only Son to redeem our fallen human nature.

  • Oconnordamien

    Wow Derren Brown who be proud of that deduction! I do live in a village in the Wicklow hills. We also have a convent here, I’ve never seen them in the church as I’ve never been in it. To be honest I’d feel guilty going in just to observe the lesser spotted wimple wearer in one of it’s natural habitats.

  • Oconnordamien

    I have nightmares of a nun chasing me around a field with a switch while I try to give up smoking!

    Lovely horses…… I wish!!!!!

  • Anonymous

    @Damo.          
                   I doubt you have much chance of seeing nuns in habit over there. As another symptom of just how far the Church in Ireland has lost its way, and is fumbling around in the dark( in more ways than one!). Some of them do circle dancing and something to do with stones in your pocket ,I am told.
     Guilt Damo?????? There s a blast from your past.
     Off to London for a day or two, where one can participate in a proper Mass in Brompton Oratory. Have a good weekend.

  • Oconnordamien

    In all honesty the only catholic guilt I have is that I really should return my confirmation money to my relatives. Even at age 11 I knew I taking under false pretences. I really should have taken up my father’s offer to skip the confirmation and he’d just give me lots of cash.

    Enjoy your weekend.

  • ms Catholic state

    Well neither do atheists….always do good.  But better for the world when people know they HAVE to do good…..and avoid evil.  Much much better for everyone…and every soul.  That’s why a Christian world is much better than an atheist one.

  • ms Catholic state

    Both Nazism and Communism are failed unatural brute Satanic states.  That’s why they always have to be forced.  They are short-lived abberations (Thank God)  Secularism as a neutral state doesn’t exist.  It will always be going towards or away from God…..towards or away from the Natural Law.
     
    Christianity on the other hand, is of Christ God Himself.  And aids humanity to Civilise and humanise.  No contest….Catholic State beats all the rest.

  • http://twitter.com/Acleron1 Acleron

    If christians have to do good but don’t do it then they are making choices. Perhaps they feel it is better to kill someone than obey your 5th commandment, as in war. So in their behaviours, christians and atheists are not much different, they both choose which moral codes they will follow. The difference mainly lies in that an atheist will find it much easier to investigate why they follow a particular moral code because they know that all of their morals have been chosen, rather than be given to them by someone else.

  • http://twitter.com/Acleron1 Acleron

    Perhaps because some atheists can see a greater good. Let a woman control her own body and not allow some busybody tell her what to do because of some thing written by someone long dead. Allow people to die with dignity if they wish, rather than suffer the supreme indignity of being in great pain and totally disabled. And as for population control, let’s look at the evidence. Christians, and I include catholics, use birth control, so when convenient, you believe in population control as well. But what about the broader picture? The seventh billion human is born about now. There is an absolute limit to the amount of biomass that can be supported by solar insolation, but war and mass starvation will occur long before that point by inefficient food practices, lack of fresh water and global warming. That is the dystopian future you advocate by opposing population control.

  • http://twitter.com/Acleron1 Acleron

    Secularists cause STDs? If that is the case, please explain why the religious and catholic states in South America have over three times the rate of curable STD than Western Europe?

  • ms Catholic state

    Atheism provides little incentive to do good….and atheists don’t even know what good is as they have no external objective moral code.  ‘Good’ for an atheist can be merely the satisfaction of their individual whims and desires….as they invent their own definition of Good.  This is very dangerous as the 20th century has shown us.

  • ms Catholic state

    Not when a woman’s ‘controlling of her own body’ is just a cover for taking the life of a helpless innocent.  No civilised society can allow this…..society must offer protection to ALL humans….from birth to death!

  • ms Catholic state

    Why then do secular states such as South Africa have the highest rates of HIV in the world…higher than South America?!  Also there is an epidemic of gonnerha and chlamydia in secular UK.  Secularism spreads diseases!!

  • http://twitter.com/Acleron1 Acleron

       ‘Atheism provides little incentive to do good’
    Yes, as atheism is just the lack of belief in the supernatural, it has nothing to do with good.
       ‘and atheists don’t even know what good is as they have no external objective moral code’
    But this is very wrong. It is the religious who don’t comprehend the meaning of good because your definition is given to you by someone else and you do not question it. This of course leads to the belief that it is good to physically maim wrong-doers, kill people who disagree with their version of belief…
    I’d like a believer to clearly explain how they can have an absolute fixed moral code that changes. In actual fact, your moral code is just as flexible as anybody else’s, it is just that you fool yourself into believing that your current morals haven’t changed, but surely history shows you that it has changed. Or perhaps I’m wrong, do you yearn for the return of the Inquisition?