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The political exploitation of the Toulouse killings revealed Sarkozy’s rivals as contemptibly opportunist

The massacres never had anything remotely to do with the French debate on immigration

By on Wednesday, 21 March 2012

President Sarkozy, left, and his Socialist challenger François Hollande meet at a fundraiser last month (PA photo)

President Sarkozy, left, and his Socialist challenger François Hollande meet at a fundraiser last month (PA photo)

Now it has emerged that the Toulouse serial killer — who murdered first three French Muslim soldiers of Maghrebin origin and then a rabbi and three Jewish children — is not a white right-wing neo-Nazi supporter of Marine Le Pen or even President Sarkozy but a jihadist claiming affiliation with al-Qaeda, there are some on the French Left who ought to feel distinctly embarrassed. They had assumed, and publicly stated, that the current debate on immigration in France lay behind the killings, had somehow, in the mind of the killer, given him permission to kill three Muslims and four Jews. François Bayrou, a centrist candidate, and François Hollande, the socialist presidential candidate, ought surely, in particular, to be ashamed of themselves: both went as near as they could to implying that President Sarkozy was personally responsible for these terrible deaths. This is how the New York Times correspondent reported M Bayrou, with barely concealed approval of his analysis: the debate in France, he preposterously opined, is similar to that in Norway after Anders Behring Breivik killed dozens of young campers in cold blood in July: was his killing spree encouraged in some way, asked the NYT reporter, by too harsh a debate in Norway about immigrants and foreigners?

François Bayrou, a centrist presidential candidate who came in third in the 2007 election, touched off the debate on Monday night. He criticised the tone of the campaign, especially from Mr Sarkozy, who is running to the right to try to ensure that he survives the first round of voting on April 22.…

The murder of children “because of their origin, of the religion of their family,” is linked, Mr Bayrou said, “to a growing climate of intolerance” ….

Public figures, he said, “have the duty to make sure that tensions, passions, hatred should not be kept alive at every moment. To point the finger at one or another according to their origins, it is to inflame passions, and we do it because in that flame there are votes to get.”

We now know that the murder of both Jewish and Muslim victims had nothing whatever to do with “a growing climate of intolerance”, or with President Sarkozy’s quest for votes. François Hollande (on whom President Sarkozy is now closing the gap in the polls) made similar accusations, attaching responsibility for the killings to both Sarkozy and Marine Le Pen of the National Front. “There are words that influence, that penetrate, that free up. Those who have responsibility must master their vocabulary,” Mr Hollande said.

In other words, the current debate on immigration inspired by M Sarkozy had influenced, penetrated, freed up the Toulouse serial killer, and M Sarkozy had to take his share of the blame. All consummate drivel, we now know: and shameful drivel at that. There was always a more likely explanation. What kind of person is particularly hostile both to 1) Muslims who have joined Western forces active in Afghanistan (all three soldiers killed had just returned from a tour of duty there) and 2) all Jews, wherever they are? Why automatically assume that must be some kind of European racist? Of course we had to take seriously the possibility that the killer was an Islamist fanatic: that was certainly my own working hypothesis, short of any firm evidence, and nothing surprised me less than to discover that I was right.

M Hollande now deserves to lose this election. Having attempted to get votes away from M Sarkozy by pinning the massacres on him, he cannot now complain if M Sarkozy now turns the table on him. “Grave and sombre,” reported Charles Bremner in the Times newspaper, “President Sarkozy has been offering comfort to a shocked nation in the aftermath of the killings”:

By tradition, his pause from campaigning for a turn as national father figure should bring him an electoral advantage over François Hollande, the centre-left challenger for the presidency. The massacre could transform the campaign for the first-round election on April 22. Mr Sarkozy was already narrowing the lead enjoyed by Mr Hollande in opinion polls and tragedies usually help incumbent presidents — conservative ones in particular — over challengers from the opposition… Much now hangs on the outcome of the hunt for the killer … A swift arrest would enhance the image of chief enforcer that Mr Sarkozy has carefully cultivated.

Well, a swift arrest can now be expected, and by the time this is posted may already have taken place: if you missed it on the news, as I write the police have him surrounded. He has admitted from an upstairs window that he killed the Jews in revenge for the deaths of Palestinian children, and the Muslim soldiers for their complicity in the “occupation” of Afghanistan. Immigration had nothing to do with it: all the victims were French citizens, not immigrants.

What an irony it would be if, as Charles Bremner speculates, this dreadful business does indeed “transform the campaign for the first-round election on April 22”. It has certainly thrown an interesting light on the opposing candidates, one which reflects well on President Sarkozy and very badly indeed on his contemptibly opportunist rivals.

  • Anonymous

    Exactly my thoughts. The attacks on Le Pen in particular have been vitriolic and as soon as I saw, this morning, that the leftist fantasy of a right wing killer had not been borne out I was greatly relieved. Any such killings by a right winger would have been used to silence the debate on immigration and tar all right wingers with the same brush. That, now, has been blown out of the water.

  • Charles Martel

    Nice one, Bill

  • Anonymous

    I’ve no idea what you’re on about, at least concerning M. Bayrou — who stated that the murders of the children was racially motivated (it clearly *was*), and who asked people not to point fingers at the various ethnic and religious groups (which is BTW *exactly* what *everyone* of authority in France has been saying since the killer was located last night). There is an implicit attack against the manifestly racist views of the Front National, which is justified quite frankly by the fact that the FN has indeed been attempting to politicise this event. There is no reference whatsoever in his language to any other political party.

    The only person I can see here whose trying to make cheap political capital out of this horrid affair is William Oddie.

    This article is based on disinformation.

  • Anonymous

    As for who in France (today) is attempting to gain political capital from this on the basis of racism or “anti-racism”, this would be Marine Le Pen, and (indeed) François Hollande.

  • daclamat

    The French reporting on TV and radio has been balanced and informative. The only politican making political capital has been Marine LePen, accusing Sarkozy, a former minster of the interior who famously said he was going to clean out the rabble scum with a Karcher, with laxism in the face of the Moslem threat. She would wouldn’t she? Dr Oddie is once again infected by fièvre aphteuse – foot and mouth disease, with the added complication of myopia. Regrettably, people will believe him because his opinions appear in a Catholic newspaper. Where on earth, out of which dustbin, did he get the nauseous nonsense of lefties out to get Le Pen?
    I have just finished watching the military ceremony for the murdered paras. Moving and dignified with no one trying to make political capital. What is emerging is that the presumed terrorist had received training with the Taliban, was a bombmaker imprisoned in Kandahar, escaped and returned to France, had collected a huge arsenal, all of this while supposedly under surveillance. François Hollande, far from making political capital is maintaining a dignified silence. The shooter, Mohammed Merah, is in fact a French citizen of Algerian descent. Three times rejected be the French army.
    The murdered soldiers were Imad Ibn Ziaten,  Abel Chennouf, and Mohammed Legouade, not your average Dupont, but French citizens, like their presumed murderer. And Moslems.
    I find Oddie’s remarks, in his own words, contemptibly opportunist. 

  • W Oddie

    Are you saying that the newspaper reports of what Bayrou and hollande actually said, quoted above, are just untrue? Ridiculous.

  • T L

     Eh, “racially motivated”????

    What “race” are Muslims? And what “race” are Jews???? Let me help you…these are religions. Religions are made up of IDEAS not “races”. Some have good ideas….others, especially Islam, has some really sick and bad ideas. Unless you like stonings, genital mutilation, wife beating, honor killing, gay persecution, and Jew and Christian hatred, you might want to recognize that all religions (IDEAS) ARE NOT the “SAME”. Your comment, therefore, is nothing more than mindless, uninformed idiocy. Wake up. Quit abusing the word “race” and “racism” for whatever political purposes you calculatedly choose to do so.

    It is now fully clear that these were FULLY RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED murders. The Muslim soldiers who were serving in the French “infidel” army are deemed according to Islamic theology and, therefore, by the killer (and any believing Muslim) to have left Islam and joined the “Infidel”. The penalty for that is DEATH:

    “Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that
    none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle,
    cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married
    person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts
    from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17

    “Whoever changed his (Islamic) religion, then kill him” Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57

    Sura 4:90 “If they turn back from
    Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.”

    As to Jews:

    Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may
    peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the
    Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them
    until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a
    stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a
    Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say,
    for it is the tree of the Jews. Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985:

    The same is repeated in NUMEROUS
    HADITH passages. And….
     

    “Take not the Jews and Christians for friends … slay the idolaters
    [infidels] wherever ye find them. …Fight against those who … believe not in
    Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).

    Sorry, pal, no “race” or “racism” involved; they were killed – as so many continue to be all over this world (and more will be killed as long as you continue to pretend that this is not the case or that “all religions are equally good/equally bad”) – based upon BASIC (not “extreme”) Islamic theology.

    And what about the “,,,manifestly racist views of the Front National…,” as you state it?

    There is NOTHING “racist” or about “race” in the views or positions of Marine Le Pen or the Front National. It’s all in your head. You’re seeing “Nazis” where none exist. Meanwhile over the past few days, you’ve seen first hand what TODAY”S FASCISTS look like…they believe in the supremacy of ISLAM and MUSLIMS, yet you still can’t recognize it. Both your comments and this killers Islamic-motivated actions only PROVE MARINE LE PEN AND THE FRONT NATIONAL TO BE 100% CORRECT.

    She and the FN are not “racist” and they don’t care about “race” Hmmmm….if that were the case, why do you think neither she or I or anyone else complain about Hindu immigrants, Buddhist immigrants, Jewish immigrants? There are MEMBERS of and VOTERS for Front National FROM EVERY RACE. And, despite what you would like to believe, the party is NOT “right-wing” – it is made up EQUALLY of people from the LEFT, RIGHT, and CENTER, as are other Islam-aware political parties across Europe. We have a problem and Marine Le Pen, the FN, and a small handful of other parties like this across Europe are the only ones willing to bring up these questions and have an honest, open, and calm public discussion of these issues.

    Meanwhile, Sarkozy says what he needs to say to get votes and then. as we’ve seen, once he’s elected, he does very little to take care of these issues. He said today even, this “has nothing to do with religion.” REALLY????? He apparently does not want to understand Islam as Islam is seen by not only the killer, but by Muslims across the West and across the world.  He chooses largely symbolic points, such as the face veil. Anyone who votes for Sarkozy and believes that France has a chance of dealing with the issues that have caused these killings is fully out of touch with reality and has wasted a vote. Marine Le Pen is the only viable, honest candidate in this election – and she and her party are BY NO MEANS “racist” or “right-wing”. They merely want to talk about and deal with reality. A “reality” that continually keeps killing people and undermining Western freedoms for ALL people.

  • Fergus Rossmore

    Dear Editor, …..It is grossly insensitive and maybe dangerous to make any comment whatsoever until this problem has been resolved. Bill Oddie really ought to know better.

  • Anonymous

    Your comment, therefore, is nothing more than mindless, uninformed idiocy. Wake up. Quit abusing the word “race” and “racism” for whatever political purposes you calculatedly choose to do so.

    What a load of supercilious and misguided bloody rubbish !!!

    It seems to have utterly escaped your notice that various obnoxious claims are being put forward by people and parties OTHER than myself.

  • Anonymous

    The newspaper report that you quote, in that it blatantly misrepresents the meaning of Bayrou’s intervention at the very least, is indeed untrue.

    There you go.

  • T L

    Sorry, no, it didn’t escape my notice, JabbaPapa…there are lots of people like you with their head in the sand. They are the one’s who mindlessly write rubbish…but yet fail to answer facts such as I have written above.

    Your heart is in the right place, JabbaPapa…you want to protect human rights; so do we all. The difference between me and you or you and Marine Le Pen, for that matter, is that I have read the Koran and the Hadith/Sura and I understand that defending human rights lies not in narrowly protecting any religion (a mere collection of IDEAS…in this case, Islam)…it lies in having a frank discussion of Islam and its teachings. And then in making sure that public policy in our countries actually take these very dangerous and murderous realities into account.

    If you think Islam in France or Britain is (or will be) any different than Islam in Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan or Sudan for that matter, you are dreaming. And while you are dreaming – despite your well-meaning desire to protect human rights – you are condemning girls, women, gays, Jews, Christians, other religious minorities, and your country to the same miserable future that girls, women, gays, Jews, Christians, other religious minorities, and countries all across the Muslim world “enjoy” today.

    Next time you wish to respond to what I or anyone else has written try putting some time into explaining why I and the gunman in Toulouse (as well as Osama bin Laden and the newly elected “‘democracies” all across the Muslim world) understand the Koran and Hadiths to say the same thing? (Fact is, any idiot who reads the Koran and Hadiths sees what vile, violent sickness was put out as prophecy by a pedopaelic warlord). Instead of explaining how we all have somehow “misunderstood” Islam, you respond with a whole lot of fog. Or, to use your own words, “rubbish”. If you believe in “reason” try applying some to your thinking and writing.

    As to “racism”, the following is the definition of “racism”: “…a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.” Unless someone tells you that they believe that GENETIC “race” DETERMINES human traits and capacities, remember this: they are NOT IN ANY WAY OR BY ANY MEANS “racist”. Attacking any given set of I-D-E-A-S (e.g. religion, culture, etc.) is NOT “racism”. In fact, attacking IDEAS is exactly what in the West gave us the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, and the reformation of Judaism. Again, if you believe that all IDEAS are some “equal” or “to be respected” then you need to explain to me, the readers here, and the world how you see RELIGIOUS IDEAS that promote stonings, genital mutilation, wife beating, honor killing, gay persecution, and Jew and Christian hatred as being “equal” or “to be respected”???? Please….

    Again, if Marine Le Pen or the FN or any other Islam-aware party (or their members) in Europe were “racist” you need to explain why neither she nor any of these parties are complaining about Indian Hindu immigrants, Asian
    Buddhist or Shinto immigrants, or African Jewish and Christian
    immigrants? When such people show up, they are expelled from the parties; they’re not welcome. And they quickly come to know it. Again, there are MEMBERS of and VOTERS for Front National FROM
    EVERY RACE. And, as I wrote before, despite what you would like to believe, the party is
    NOT “right-wing” – it is made up EQUALLY of people from the LEFT, RIGHT,
    and CENTER, as are other Islam-aware political parties across Europe.
    We have a problem and Marine Le Pen, the FN, and a small handful of
    other parties like this across Europe are the only ones willing to bring
    up these questions and have an honest, open, and calm public discussion
    of these issues.

    Here are some great essays that hit these issues perfectly and will leave you with many questions about a FULL view of HUMAN RIGHTS that demand answers.

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/blog/21099

    Answers. Something you, for very good reason, failed to give above. You failed to give answers to what I have written above because you have NONE. You know it is all true, but the only answer you have is to avoid giving answers or to denounce facts as “rubbish” or to self-righteously call people “racist” who absolutely are not. Good reading.

  • Anonymous

    I can’t help it if you want to rant on at great length concerning some notions in your mind having nothing at all to do with me.

    I have no need whatsoever to refer to non-French sources of “information” about the Front National.

  • T L

    Thanks for that further evidence of your wonderfully and laughably “open” mind…. You’ve only proved for all of us the truth of everything I’ve written. You’ve got…NOTHING of substance…and you…dare…not…to…THINK….

    P.S. – The link above is not to “non-French sources of ‘information’ about the Front National”…it’s about these issues generally. Good reading…if you can actually OPEN your mind and actually dare to THINK. Reality can be quite unpleasant.

  • Anonymous

    I am as uninterested in your insults as I am about your apparently obsessional focus on these strange ideas.

    Your suggestion that *I* should be the one who needs to “open my mind” is as ironic as it is laughable.

  • T L

    Answer the questions, my friend. Yet again, attempting to avoid answering very simple, very direct, and life-and-death questions by projecting on others what you seem to be: a person with apparently rather limited thought who throws around accusations of “racism” and close-mindedness, bigotry, hate, etc. and “rubbish” instead of answering the questions and thinking.

    Don’t take things so personally. When you make broad and unsubstantiated assertions such as you have and can’t even answer basic but very real life-and-death questions raised here about Islam and human rights, you’ve fully proven both what Marine Le Pen argues and what I’ve written above and your own full lack of credibility. We have to assume that you either have no answers OR you are incapable of honestly thinking through and reflecting on these very important issues that have resulted in the killing of seven human beings in Toulouse alone. And yet you attack as “racist” the one candidate who has had the guts to raise and discuss these issues in an adult manner. Which is far more than can be said about your own abilities here. Step up. Answer the questions.

    Please tell us how “religion” = “race”? Please tell us how criticizing IDEAS = “racism” or “hate”? Please tell us why after reading the Koran and the Hadith, I am wrong to have come to the same understanding of Islam (though I reject Islam because of its violence and hate) as the Toulouse shooter and Osama bin Laden and the Egyptian parliament? Please tell us why Marine Le Pen and the FN are “racist” or “hateful” for challenging the IDEAS of ISLAM? Please tell us why Marine Le Pen and FN (and other such parties), if they are so “racist” and “hateful”, don’t have a problem with or attack other religions and non-Muslims of other races? And tell us why your failure to speak up about Islam should be seen as any different today than the failure to speak up about Nazism was leading up to World War II?

    Again, the blood of young girls, women, gays, Jews, Christians, other religious minorities, and non-observant Muslims who don’t want to comply with Islam is and will be on YOUR hands until you do speak out against this type of barbarity and support the human rights of ALL persons – as opposed to YOUR myopically OBSESSING about the FEELINGS of people who violently protect and assert the sick delusions of a pedophile “prophet”.

    Please answer the questions. Or simply turn off your computer. Because, absent some real and thoughtful answers, we know what you have: NOTHING.

  • daclamat

    If you want to know who said and did what in France, it doesn’t make much sense to quote foreign newspapers. It’s child’s play to get Figaro, le Monde and Liberation on line if you want a wide spread of opinion. All agree that Sarkozy has acquitted himself with dignity and has caught the mood of the country.  All note with approval that the candidates have put aside political point scoring one month before the first round of voting.  A leading UMP regional president has compared François Hollande to Adolf Hitler. Indeed Dr Oddie should know better,but he doesn’t and won’t. Not  that it matters. I doubt he has much of a readership France.If his Setswana is not up to it, he might like to consult the English language version of Botswana for balanced reporting, which ranges from the Middle East to Sweden via Poland……Dumela Rra

  • daclamat

    The French leftward leaning news paper, Liberation, no political friend of Sarkozy, said in its editorial today
    ” Face aux cercueils des trois militaires tués à Toulouse et Montauban, les mots de Nicolas Sarkozy furent dignes, émouvants.”
    Hollande and Bayrou agree. Contemptibly opportunist!

  • Anonymous

    Answer the questions, my friend.

    Why ? I have no interest in them whatsoever.

    Please just leave me alone.

  • T L

    JabbaPapa writes above: “Why ? I have no interest in them whatsoever. Please
    just leave me alone.”

    You have no interest in these questions, JabbaPapa? Really???? Is that why
    you show up on a website where people are writing about these topics and then
    start to throw around words like “racist” and “racism” in relation to people
    (like Le Pen) who merely advocate a discussion of a set of IDEAS that caused
    yet another adherent to those IDEAS to cause the nation of France to expend
    countless MILLIONS in tracking down and attempting to capture that adherent of
    those IDEAS (cited in the quotations from the Koran and Hadith above)???? And,
    even worse yet, because of Mohammed Merah’s commitment to the sick IDEAS (that
    you believe it is “racist”, “bigoted”, or “hateful” for society to discuss or
    consider), he put a bullet into the heads of SEVEN people – three of them
    CHILDREN – over the past days????? Yet you, after throwing around the words “racist”
    and “racism” here in relation to those who simply advocate discussing, thinking
    through, and considering actions on these matters now gravely effecting our
    societies (and all of the Muslim world), glibly claim (after showing up here and
    making accusations on the topic) to have the luxury of having “no interest” in
    these questions? Right.

    You have no interest in these questions? Really???? A fine
    luxury. Do this. Write a letter to the families of these seven human beings –
    three of them CHILDREN – who took a bullet to the head in Toulouse due, in fact, to the very IDEAS set
    out above in the Koran and Hadith citations. These IDEAS. IDEAS that you are
    incapable of and have “no interest” in discussing – other than apparently to
    call people “racists” who actually see the need and have a desire for a society
    to discuss and work through how society should deal with this ONE very SPECIFIC
    set of IDEAS (and the people that adhere to them) that cause and have caused so
    many individuals who adhere to these IDEAS to act murderously in the very exact
    same way every day all across the world. In your letter, tell their family
    members that you have “no interest” in these questions “whatsoever”. Tell them
    you think, in fact, it is “racist” of them if they now believe that the bullet
    that went through their loved one’s head had anything to do with the IDEAS
    espoused and acted upon by Mohammed Merah. Though Mohammed Merah has told us
    such is the case, you apparently believe it did not – and think, in fact, any
    person or political party that would consider such an idea to be a “racist” and
    “merely seeking political gain.” Please.

     

    Finally, please don’t come to a comment section like this,
    make baseless and fully thoughtless assertions, show yourself unable to provide
    any thoughtful answers, and then ask me or anyone else to “just leave [you]
    alone.” If you want to come here and call people “racist” or “Nazis” or “bigots”
    or “hateful” (whether me or Marine Le Pen or the FN or any other person or
    party) who are honestly trying to deal with these life-and-death issues
    publicly and DEMOCRATICALLY so that we can put an end to people in France,
    Britain, and abroad taking bullets to the head, being stoned to death, being
    imprisoned or killed because they don’t believe or say the same things that
    BASIC (not “extreme”) Islam requires, such as having hands and feet amputated,
    being persecuted or treated as property or animals because of gender, religion
    (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, or commitment to ACTUAL human rights, or,
    for that matter, who simply don’t want to comply with Muslim practices in their
    writing or thinking, well, in that case, you can fully expect that NO ONE will (or
    should) leave you alone.

     

    If you are unable to provide a meaningful and thoughtful
    contribution here yet want to call the people and parties as “racist” and “bigots”
    and “close-minded” and “right-wing” who are actually trying to deal with these
    things, don’t expect US to numb down our minds or thoughts so that YOU don’t
    have to face the inconvenience of THINKING. As I suggested before – unplug your
    computer. Then go put your head back into the sand while the rest of us –
    including Marine Le Pen – who actually care about a PEACEFUL, DEMOCRATIC,
    STABLE SOCIETY with  HUMAN RIGHTS FOR ALL
    PEOPLE actually try to figure out how to keep people who espouse this one certain
    set of specific IDEAS from putting bullets into the heads of more of us “infidels”, non-believers,
    apostates, and our children all across the world. Thanks.

     

  • Anonymous

    Oh, shut up.

  • T L

    The level of (lack of) intellect is astounding. Thanks again for confirming your full inability to think or answer simple, straight-forward, honest, timely, and important questions. Questions for which seven people – three of them small children – took bullets to the head this week. Fact is, your abuse of the “racist” label to discredit people and to shut down consideration and discussion of simple IDEAS does not hold water. And you realize that.

    From now on, every time you hear the names Mohammed Merah and Toulouse from today on into the future you can be reminded of the INTELLECTUAL and MORAL DISHONESTY that you showed and felt during these days when you realized that YOU, by trying to shut down public discussion by labeling people and political parties without basis and quite incorrectly as somehow being “racist” or “hateful” or “right-wing” or “Nazi” (as opposed to actually thinking through the points raised by these SEVEN murders, by Marine Le Pen, or by myself here), that YOU are contributing to and now share responsibility going forward for the lack of recognition or discussion of these problems in Europe and for all of the blood, pain, and agony of those (young girls, women, daughters, gays, Jews, Christians, other religious minorities, non-observant Muslims, journalists, human rights activists, etc.) who will continue to die and suffer in Europe and the Muslim world due to the deep aversion (that YOU are helping to expand within Western societies) to calling for awareness, discussion, and recognition of some simple but sick IDEAS (Islam).

    Silence kills. By YOUR misrepresentations, omissions, denial, and silence, you are merely allowing the dirty and very bloody work of the Koran and its followers like Mohammed Merah, his brother, and all of their friends to move forward. They all, Mohammed Merah, the Taliban, the great Muslim states, from Iran to Saudi Arabia to Pakistan to Indonesia to Sudan, Osama bin Laden, “honor” killers, wife-beaters, and oh so many others thank you so much. Sleep well.

  • T L

     Response below….

  • JabbaPapa

    Thank you for your hate mail.

  • T L

    You’re quite a joke(r). First you abuse the word “racist” to describe valid democratic exchange and now you abuse the word “hate” to describe my posting above? Everyone here sees through your weak games and lack of intellect. Instead of answering questions or engaging in valid discussion, you abuse highly-loaded words. The mark of a weak mind.

    Do you actually understand the definitions of these words????? Kindly explain to me where you find “hate” in anything I’ve written above? Yes, JabbaPapa, I guess it must be “hateful” to ask someone like yourself who has shown himself highly incapable of answering good and pertinent questions or thinking rationally TO ACTUALLY THINK. Yes, it must be “hateful”  to argue that members of the public and society (via the DEMOCRATIC political process) MUST be allowed to think and discuss through topics and IDEAS (religion) that continue to cause murders and tragedy in both the West and the Muslim world. Yes, it must be “hateful” to support human rights FOR ALL – to understand that human rights actually must extend far beyond what “offends” Islam and Muslims (and every other religion) in order for human rights to actually continue to exist in any way, shape, or form. And, yes, it must be “hateful” to offer to you the thought that trying to shut down necessary conversations (raised by SEVEN MURDERS, by years of Jihad, by me, by Marine Le Pen, or by anyone else) by calling people and political parties “racist” and “hateful” has tragic and extremely deadly CONSEQUENCES and horrendous effects on the weakest and most vulnerable both in Western and Muslim societies. And, of course, it must be “hateful” to point out that if YOU stand in the way of these conversations by calling people or political parties “racist” or “hateful” then YOU also bear PERSONAL responsibility for the tragic and deadly consequences caused by adherents to the (Islamic) IDEAS put under the spotlight in what I’ve written above, what Marine Le Pen has questioned, and what many people – including non-observant and former Muslims – all across the world (who are the targets of Islamic death threats) argue must be discussed and dealt with. 

    Yes, that, in your definition, dear great intellect, JappaPapa, is somehow “hate”. Good luck with that. As I said before, you might want to look into applying a bit of “reason” (and perhaps some intellect) to your writing and your thinking. You might also want to start answering uncomfortable questions (or simply admitting that the questions are uncomfortable) instead of trying to dodge such by calling names – or, for that matter, working to prevent others from discussing these difficult questions by calling them “racist” or “hateful”. That game is old and it goes nowhere. It also makes you directly responsible for what you knowingly or unknowingly enable.

  • JabbaPapa

    Carry on ranting, there !!!

    Don’t imagine that I can be bothered to actually read any of your walls of text though…

  • T L

    Right. You needn’t let us know that, dear incompetent friend. Reading anything would assume the need to think, reason, use logic, have an open mind, and do something other than try to blame, change the topic, or call names when you have no position to argue. You’ve made your incapacity for all of these things and your lack of insight and intellect quite clear here. Save yourself further embarrassment. Peace be with you.

  • JabbaPapa

    Fascinating “conversation” seems to be going on inside your own head there !!!

    I can see from the tail end of this latest piece of your handicraft that you seem to be accusing me of something ghastly, but the idea of scrolling up to discover what it might be does not engage my interest.

  • T L

    You needn’t let us know that, dear incompetent friend. Reading anything
    would assume the need to think, reason, use logic, have an open mind,
    and do something other than try to blame, change the topic, or call
    names when you have no position to argue. You’ve made your incapacity
    for all of these things and your lack of insight and intellect quite
    clear here. Save yourself further embarrassment.

    Peace be with you. May God forgive you for enabling (and not doing
    your part to dispense with) IDEAS of evil as exemplified by the deeds
    that followed the IDEAS (Islam) held by your Islam and Jihad-loving
    friend, Mohammed Merah, and all of those who came before him and will
    come after him – in Europe and across the world. By your failure to
    seek, say, and promote the truth about this unending IDEA-based carnage,
    the blood of little Miriam Monsonego (and so many others) IS (and WILL
    be) on your hands….

    In another life you will have to explain your actions (and lack of actions) to her and to God. Remember this face well…

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/toulouse-killing.jpg

  • T L

    Hmmmm…not sure why my comment (and my repeat of that comment) to JappaPapa were deleted by this website. The short comment (and the repeated posting of that comment), for those who missed it, merely suggested a few things in accordance with standard Western and Christian principles.

    Apparently it is against the rules here on this website to inform another commenter that reading actually assumes the use of one’s intellect, an ability to reason, think, and have an open mind, as opposed to attempting to shut down thought and discussion by making accusations, changing the topic, or calling names when one has no cogent argument to offer. Apparently it is also quite ironically against the rules here on a Catholic website to suggest that we are personally responsible to God and to those we have done wrong or harm for the acts – or even the omissions – that we have allowed ourselves to participate in most especially when it is clear that such would or could cause harm to others or to society as a whole.

    Apparently, it is also very ironically against the rules of this Catholic website to wish another commenter “Peace be with you” and expressing the hope that “May God forgive” a commenter (in this case JabbaPapa) for not living up to the above-named Christian requirements of not performing acts or omissions that would foreseeably lead to harm or death coming to other persons. Such as, for example, the combined acts and omissions as JabbaPapa has put forward here, that attempt to quash discussion here and in society over the core IDEAS of Islam and, equally as dangerously, to paint those who believe a conversation within our societies through our democratic processes (as, for example, Marine Le Pen, the FN, and other Islam-aware persons and organizations made up EQUALLY of the political LEFT, RIGHT, and CENTER are urging) is immediately necessary if we are going to be able to continue to live in free, open, stable, equal, and tolerant societies in the coming future. According to JabbaPapa, as one can read in what appear to be fitful brain-seizures above, we read that it is “hateful” and “racist” or “politically opportunistic” for Marine Le Pen, the FN, the families of Mohammed Merah’s victims, or for any of us to suggest or insist that having such honest, open public discussion of a SET OF IDEAS (Islam) and setting public, security, and immigration policy accordingly.

    It also appears that it is against the rules of this website to post the picture of a victim of the recent murders and to suggest that any person who acts to repress discussion of these issues is and WILL be responsible for and need to answer to God and the persons harmed, including these recent victims, to any extent that any person’s acts or omissions enable or allows the evil of a set of sick and deadly IDEAS to remain off-limits from public discussion and criticism.

    We are continuously told that this: 1) is only about “one individual” or a “tiny minority of extremists”; and 2) that this has nothing to do with any of the IDEAS that exist in Islam’s most holy books. Yet, why, when I and Mohammed Merah and Osama bin Laden and the newly “elected” Muslim dominated Egyptian parliament read the Muslims “holy” books, well, why do we come to the same understanding of Islam? Why? Because these books are unambiguous in their teachings of hate, violence, and intolerance. Don’t believe me? Below is a passage where Mohammed MOCKS the dead bodies of those “unbelievers” he just killed as he throws them down a well:

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/059-sbt.php#005.059.360

    Charming, eh, JabbaPapa? Had you read those before??? I’m guessing not. (I should not have to point out on this website that there is no record or writings that even suggest Jesus ever did anything even remotely objectionable.)

    Here’s a passage where the so-called “prophet” of Islam marries a child when the girl is six and “consummates” the marriage when she’s nine:

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/062-sbt.php#007.062.064

    Hmmm. It’s no wonder why people then uniformly all across the world in every Muslim country and now in countries across the West send their child-daughters off for marriage (or marry someone else’s child-daughter), force them to genital mutilation, beat wives, stone people to death, believe killing non-Muslims and non-observant or former Muslims takes one to paradise as a “martyr”?

    This is especially the case since the Koran tells all Muslims that Mohammed is the model of conduct and thought in ALL THINGS and FOR ALL TIMES:

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/033-qmt.php#033.021

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/033-qmt.php#033.021

    In fact, he is such a MODEL for all Muslims, that Muslims are taught by Mohammed specifically that they must reject all else:

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/068-qmt.php#068.004

    And what does Mohammed say is the highest calling for a Muslims? Jihad is clearly laid out in the Koran as the hightest calling for a Muslim….

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.041

    Jihadists, according to Mohammed and the Koran itself, are the most praised of all among Muslims: Mohammed made this clear in the Koran by saying:

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.095

    In fact, a failure to take part in Jihad as is the duty of all Muslims is punished by Allah. Thus, it is not only encouraged in the Koran and by Mohammed to take part in Jihad, those who do not participate will be subject to “a grievous penalty” in the afterlife:

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/048-qmt.php#048.017

    So let’s take a look at the Mohammed Merah situation today in light of these IDEAS about what, according to this one set of sick IDEAS, is the best conduct for all human beings:

    We can now see that Mohammed Merah’s family is predictably proud of what he has done.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/french_gunman_brother_proud_of_what_IQwsJUJDpFrkkx6cJC6DgI

    In other words – unless “insanity” (as some people have excused his
    actions) is contagious – Merah’s killings lie not in some “psychological
    condition”, but in a VERY SPECIFIC set of IDEAS that permit or even REQUIRE a human to act in certain ways to please God. But it would be “hateful” of us to think Mohammed Merah was motivated by “religious” IDEAS.

    Eh, no, The as the below report states, the “French terrorist was striving for martyrdom, he told cops during 32-hour standoff”

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/islamic-extremist-jumped-death-police-raid-french-authorities-article-1.1048787

    Why would he seek “martyrdom” as defined by Muslim IDEAS of such (that are directly contrary to concepts of martyrdom of Christianity) and, moreover, why would he believe that “martyrdom” involved killing non-believers or non-observant and apostate Muslims?

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.111

    And why would Mohammad Merah think that killing other people will take him to some strange virgin-filled version of paradise?

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/059-sbt.php#005.059.377

    These IDEAS Merah had in common with
    with MANY other people, thought JabbaPapa thinks it would be “hateful” and “racist” to point that out or consider what effects such thoughts and IDEAS “might” be having on both Mulsim and Western societies. So many across the world see him as a hero that his YouTube memorial or “homage”, it is reported by France24, had to be taken down:

    http://www.france24.com/en/20120323-facebook-removes-page-paying-tribute-toulouse-killer-merah-france-interior-ministry

    But don’t worry, JabbaPapa, it would be “hateful” and “racist” to suggest that such an “homage” should not be posted. So, while stating that the riots in Paris in 2005 were only a warm-up for what is coming to France, Merah’s like-minded, Islamic IDEA loving friends reposted that touching tribute here:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=241077319322481

    There are many who liked Merah, as one can see. Here are some of his friends in France, who have since been pushed underground since they are now banned in France:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VEM3YVtVBS8J:www.forsane-alizza.com/+forsane+alizza&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Here’s the website of some of Merah’s fellow “thinkers” who think Mohammed Merah is a HERO and of whom JabbaPapa thinks too, I’m sure, it would be “hateful” or “racist” to discuss or question. The website is based in a non-Muslim nation, South Africa. It even quotes from the Muslims “holy” books to explain why Mohammed Merah is such a “hero” to them:

    http://shuratulmujahideen.blogspot.com/2012/03/france-islamic-terror-in-their-own.html

    And yet another admiring website of followers of the “prophet’s” “great” IDEAS about how to treat one’s fellow man and how to achieve eternal “paradise”.

    http://ansar1.info/showthread.php?t=39786

    (I encourage you to take the time to read some of the other postings on the above two websites. It’s informative.)

    But, hey, remember, it’s only a “tiny handful of extremists” who have embraced these POLITICAL and THEOLOGICAL IDEAS found in this “religion”. And, in any case, it would be “hateful” or “racist” or “politically opportunistic” to suggest we should think through such things now, espeically during an election, let alone to consider what these IDEAS actually mean for the future of freedom, tolerance, the rule of law, stability, equality, etc.

    That’s why in England – a country with a far smaller Muslim population than France – there are “only” estimated to be “conservatively” 200 suicide bombers ready to blow themselves up in the UK for “allah” out of a “small” meaningless 2,000 actual lovers of these IDEAS of jihad who otherwise are actually now living in the UK and PLANNING attacks. Remember, the below are the British authorities providing these numbers.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/8815574/200-suicide-bombers-planning-attacks-in-UK.html

    As one of the groups with whom Merah supposedly had been affiliated recently stated in a press release affirming Merah’s “martyrdom” and expressing their joy in his acts: “Jews we say to you… our date with you is near and you will be dazzled by what we are capable of.” Personally, I like to be “dazzled” by Christmas decorations and fancy cakes and maybe even by athletic prowess – not by anti-Semitic jihadist IDEA-based violence. Is that strange?

    http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/1190722/1/.html

    Most ironically – and quite in line with the thoughts of JabbaPapa here – the BBC wonders aloud: “Did France ignore the Islamic radical threat?”:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/world-europe-17476996

    That is very ironically funny because, just like JabbaPapa, the BBC has continually taken the approach that we should not risk “stigmatizing” people by discussing these things, even if the facts, events, or IDEAS “might” appear to be relevant in the growing wave of rapes, sex-trafficking of young girls, “honor” killing, forced marriages, domestic abuse, not to mention attacks and suicide bombings that have been rocking the UK only in recent years. That these things have been so prevalent so as to force the government to, eh, kind of, recognize these things by passing a number of new laws and creating a number of new programs to counteract such developments, we are likely supposed to not notice, I’m guessing. These are apparently merely developments we otherwise should NOT notice or otherwise should not wonder why they “might” bear a direct correlation to the teachings of the Koran and Hadith – because that, as JabbaPapa has reminded us in relation to Marine Le Pen and the FN in France, would be “racist” or “hateful” or maybe even “Islamophobic”!

    On the topic of “Islamophobia” and directly related to the irony of the BBC’s article above, which wonders aloud if France “ignored” the Islamic radical threat, we can now see that France has merely done what JabbaPapa and the BBC itself has LONG recommended we all do. We should not ask questions, engage in discussion personally or, God forbid, politically through our democratic processes, or listen to Jihadists and even those who live in parallel societies among us in Western countries who THEMSELVES tell us what INSPIRES THEM to act. No, like most people and countries across the West, we – including the leaders of the nation of France – have been doing as JabbaPapa and the BBC recommend: REJECTING – despite all of the evidence and the words of committed Muslims themselves to the contrary – any and all suggestions or discussions that might ask us to see this otherwise OBVIOUS links and patterns between the theology (IDEAS) of Islam and the actions of committed Muslims. Nor do we notice that the Muslims we most find we have things in common with and are most likely for us to get to know are NON-OBSERVANT Muslims.

    So we end up with the head of BBC publicly making clear, as in the below article, that the BBC would mock Jesus but NEVER do so with the IDEAS and teachings that underlie Islam:

    http://www.christian.org.uk/news/well-mock-jesus-but-not-mohammed-says-bbc-boss/

    The below article shows the extent of what we might call (in honor of our honorary knave here), the BBC/JabbaPapa Syndrome. The BBC/JabbaPapa Syndrome we can now see in relation to the Mohammed Merah theologically-founded, IDEA-based murders and how they were initially perceived by people who know nothing of Islamic theology to be the work of “white” “Nazi” “Right-wing extremists”. Then, once we found out that Merah’s actions followed the Koran to the letter (as described in my first post here), the silence became deafening. We are not supposed to discuss notice such things. As the below article about the BBC points out, to do so – even when Muslims have confirmed our perceptions are accurate – requires us ALL to IGNORE REALITY no matter how unpleasant it might be:

    http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/293/full

    Comically (or not so comically, for those of us who actually see the danger in keeping our heads in the sand, as JabbaPapa and most of those living around us who criticize Marine Le Pen and the FN would recommend), as we see in that article, the BBC found its own proposed television drama to be “Islamophobic” even where “[t]he [BBC] reporters convinced the families of three of the four [7/7] bombers to
    cooperate.” The program was to be a dramatic examination of these terrorists and their beliefs and motives. “By the end,” as the article states, “they [e.g. the terrorists' families] agreed that the BBC’s account of their sons
    and brothers’ lives and deaths was accurate.”

    In fact, however, the “…BBC managers told them [e.g. the writers] they were stopping [the television project] because it was ‘Islamophobic.’” That’s right, the BBC determined that its own project as pre-approved as accurate by the families of the actual terrorists was “Islamophobic”. As that article puts it so well:

    “Eh?
    The defining characteristic of Islamophobic prejudice is the belief
    that all Muslims are potential terrorists, and yet here, apparently, is
    the BBC seconding that motion by arguing that a dramatic examination of
    terrorism would be offensive to all Muslims.”

    All that to say, yes, OF COURSE France IGNORED the threat – THAT IS WHAT WE ARE ALL E-X-P-E-C-T-E-D TO DO!!!! That is what the BBC, JabbaPapa, and anyone else with their head buried deep in the sand E-X-P-E-C-T-S that we MUST DO!!! Because to do the OPPOSITE – to have public discussion of another group’s I-D-E-A-S of “religion” (despite the facts and the undeniable pattern of carnage, death, and destruction across the West and the Muslim world based in these IDEAS, as confirmed by the WORDS of committed believers themselves) – would simply be “hateful” or “racist” or “Islamophobic” or “Right-wing” or “stigmatizing” or even “impolite”. Or tend to confirm that Islam actually does call for and teach violence. Yes, again, the truth can be uncomfortable.

    That is where we stand right now. Over the past two weeks, SEVEN people were killed cold-bloodedly in the heart of France. Yet individuals like myself – or Marine Le Pen – are called “racist” or “hateful” or “politically opportunistic” or “populist” or quite falsely “right-wing” for even suggesting we need to think and talk and deal with one very SPECIFIC set of IDEAS. The same goes for evening thinking through or discussing how to deal with the people who hold such IDEAS who we, in fact, only very recently hve begun to let into our societies at, what we are now seeing, is a terrible cost.

    To ignore these matters, as I’ve written in previous posts, is exacting an immense toll on the HUMAN RIGHTS and WESTERN FREEDOMS of young girls, women, gays, Jews, Christians, other religious minorities, non-observant Muslims, apostate Muslims, human rights activists, politicians, journalists, and every other person who believes in HUMAN RIGHTS for ALL – and who, yet, REFUSE to abandon HUMAN RIGHTS where and when these universal rights may “offend” Islam or Muslims (or any other religion). Every RACE, every RELIGION, and every ETHNICITY is welcome among us in the West – so long as the IDEAS they carry with them do NOT conflict with these HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOMS. This is EXACTLY why Marine Le Pen, the FN, I, or anyone else supporting Islam-aware parties and politics have NO PROBLEM with ANYONE”S RACE or for that matter Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc. Why? Because RACE and these other religions DO NOT CONTAIN or DEMAND or CONTRAVENE Western HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.

    It is that simple. To call Marine Le Pen or the FN or those who support her as “racist” or “bigoted” is RIDICULOUS; it is all about a rejection of IDEAS – certain deadly and dangerous IDEAS – not about RACE or ETHNICITY. It is only obvious that if that is not the rule that ALL MUST FOLLOW when coming to a new home in a Western country, the only result can be that the HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOMS that have created stability, trust, equality, love for one’s neighbor in Western societies WILL NOT and CAN NOT continue to exist in the long run.

    Failure to internalize these facts and thoughts, as the few and self-less like Marine Le Pen are urging us to do (because she loves these things as much as any of us do), will result in the end of the values and freedoms that we ALL hold dear. JabbaPapa may find these points humorous as his track record of mindless comments and lack of thought clearly show, but if that is where you, the reader, want to place the future of you, your family, your congregations, your cities, and your countries (or you simply sit by and FAIL TO seek, say, and act the truth in questioning simple but dangerous IDEAS), then the DIRECT and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for more child marriages, “honor” killings, wife beatings, genital mutilation, cartoon and Koran-burning riots, “youth” police attacks, burning cars, no-go zones, jihad murder, suicide bombers, car bombs, and polygamist marriages does, in fact, lie fully on your shoulders and in your hands and WILL BE the future for you and yours.

    Because we all have been sitting on these questions for so long, the only way to deal with this all is head on, directly, and honestly. I see only one candidate and one party in the French election that has shown that honesty in a rational and respectful way. The choice of whether France’s future will be the events of the past weeks – or the opposite of those terrible and tragic murders – will be made at the polls.

  • T L

    Response below…

  • T L

    Response below…

  • JabbaPapa

    You simply do not get the message that I have no interest in reading any of your contributions, and in fact that I do not read them.

    Please just leave me alone !!!!

    STOP carrying on with this ridiculous pretense that you are somehow engaging in a conversation with me. You **AREN’T** !!!!!!!

  • Matt

    But, strange isn’t it?  How often, when we think, “it’s probably an Islamic Jihadist…”, it turns out to be the truth, and yes, kill the “Jews, Kuffars, and Apostates”, seems to be an ongoing objective of Islam. By the way, hear any objections from Moslems about this Mass Killing?  Did any Muslims condemn the shooter?  And, which group was it, that had a street demonstration praising the Killer?  And who was it, that tried to lay flowers at the killer’s residence?  Sorry, afraid it isn’t contemptable to assume that Islam is in favor of jihad.  The evidence is that Moslems support and praise jihadists. Just how much proof do you need?  Perhaps, more thousands of infidels shot down?  Perhaps more Churches burned down?  Perhaps the end of religious freedom in Europe?