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Debate: Should we be celebrating the Second Vatican Council?

Or should we be urgently seeking to fix the damage it did to the Church?

By on Thursday, 4 October 2012

Bishops gathered in St Peter's for the Second Vatican Council (Photo: CNS)

Bishops gathered in St Peter's for the Second Vatican Council (Photo: CNS)

Next week Pope Benedict XVI will be celebrating the 50th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council with a Mass starting the Year of Faith. Joining him will be the surviving Fathers of the Council and the presidents of the world’s bishops’ conferences.

For many people, though, the Council is no cause for celebration. Daphne McLeod, of Catholic group Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, sees it as a disaster leading to widespread ignorance about the faith, a decline in vocations and a rise in Catholics leaving the Church.

On the other hand, the Council cannot be blamed for everything bad that has happened to the Church since 1965. And it had, some Catholics would argue, concrete achievements, such as its declaration on religious freedom, and its opening the door to an undreamt of era of ecumenism. It also dramatically improved relations with Judaism.

So, should we be celebrating the Second Vatican Council? Or should we be seeking, instead, to fix the damage it did to the Church?

  • JabbaPapa

    sweetjae, the ritual function of our Church is very precious, and it is very uncharitable to belittle the more conservative preferences of our more traditionalist brethren.

  • JabbaPapa

    Whilst I’m unsure of the numbers, the truth is that it is *only* in the West and the ex-Soviet bloc that the Church is in decline. Everywhere else it is growing healthily.

  • JabbaPapa

    Please stop accusing sweetjae of being a “stalker” — it’s completely undeserved.

    Recognise instead that the member has an honest desire for dialogue with you.

  • 2_Armpits_4_Sister_Sarah

    No it is not “spot on” – it’s a lie. Check out “Hermeneutic of Continuity 1932 election Germany” Tim Finigan has posted an excellent map showing how Germans voted in that election. It was a classic “Catholic” voting pattern. Their Church was fine back in 1932 despite what “Mr History Channel” says above.

    It’s your history faculty and their links with government, MI5/6 and the media who were behind much of the trouble in 1930’s. The Catholic Church in Germany collapsed under the weight of the denazification programs imposed upon Germany by the allies after the war. Many of these programs were designed by your faculty and their equivalents.

    This program continues unabated and one of the contemporary leaders is Professor Ian Kershaw who as a Lancashire Catholic should know better. He is the brains behind the BBC’s “‘The Nazis – A Warning from History” – more ludicrous propaganda.

  • Sweetjae

    The problem now is clear, our dear friend Benedict has taken the situational example given by the Pope to illustrate his personal view as a part of the official third Secret of Our Lady!! People take words of the Holy Father out of context to fit and advance their idea but when the Pope said something contrary they quickly dismiss and label him modernist! Very convenient indeed!

  • Sweetjae

    A compliment, thanks

  • Sweetjae

    I have no intention to belittle anything of the Church specially the TLM which I dearly love, the point I’m driving at is that ALL the Liturgical Rites of the Catholic Church whether Syriac, Ambrosian, Malabar, Chalcedean, Arminian, Latin, Byzantine, Pauline etc. are all equally valid and beautiful. That there is such thing as one is superior than the other, the Church said nothing nor teach such an idea so why would any good abiding catholic believe people that say otherwise?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PWZKI7JBARE4DDT3NQ22RWMOJE Benedict Carter

    “I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved, etc.” (after the “etc.” is the part of the Secret we still do not know).

    Sounds like a prophecy to me!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PWZKI7JBARE4DDT3NQ22RWMOJE Benedict Carter

    You take your literary criticism to impossible lengths, breaking the plain sense of what JP II said at Fulda. 

    Yes the Secret WAS revealed in 2000.

    The first part of it. More remains to be revealed, without any doubt.

  • JabbaPapa

    It’s Prophecy and Warning and Teaching.

    etc.” (after the “etc.” is the part of the Secret we still do not know)

    in fact, after the “etc” is the third secret.

    Dear Benedict, *do* at least try and remember that prior to 1989 “Russia” meant the entire Soviet bloc — and not what the name means today, in 2012.

    Particularly in the context whereby the Virgin speaks of “Russia” spreading her errors throughout the world.

    I will add that there is no requirement whatsoever in the message that the Pope should need to consecrate Russia to the heart of Mary in a public manner.

    As for the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays, it is a continually ongoing practice of the Marian devotions worldwide.

  • JabbaPapa

    *Not* you, Jabba – the Cardinal :)

    Ah !!!

    OK

    Thanks for the clarification.

    I disagree entirely with your interpretation of his article, but fair enough I suppose.

  • JabbaPapa

    I agree, but those who are faithful to each of those Rites have very good and holy reasons for their faithfulness, and it is wrong to disparage their expression of opinions derived therefrom.

  • wasm

    Better ix the damage!

  • see

    Who says it was the “spirit of the council” probably has never read any of the council’s texts. The “spirit” is within the texts. Proverbial blindness of modern church leaders! Maybe they will admit they are wrong when they are the last catholics left.

  • JabbaPapa

    Your analysis is incorrect.

  • Parasum

    “On the other hand, the Council cannot be blamed for everything bad that
    has happened to the Church since 1965.”

    ## Just for a lot of things :)

    “And it had, some Catholics would
    argue, concrete achievements,”

    ## Yes, some – but not those about to be named, unless bad stuff counts as an achievement

    “such as its declaration on religious
    freedom,”

    ## Without any explanation as to how it is not incompatible with past teaching

    “and its opening the door to an undreamt of era of ecumenism.”

    ## Which has been built on the shifting sand of half-truth and equivocation, not on rock

    “It
    also dramatically improved relations with Judaism.”

    ## A good thing in itself, and sorely needed, but was gained at the cost of deforming Catholic dogma. 

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PWZKI7JBARE4DDT3NQ22RWMOJE Benedict Carter

    “It also dramatically improved relations with Judaism.”
    Only one way.

  • Sweetjae

    I cut and paste this from Webster Dictionary and World Atlas because this blog won’t let me paste the link, anyways google it if you want:

    “Church membership in 2007 was 1.131 billion people;[180] an increase over the 1950 figure of 437 million[181] and the 1970 figure of 654 million.[182] The Catholic population increase of 139% outpaced the world population increase of 117% from 1950-2000.[181] It is the largest Christian church, and encompasses over half of all Christians, one sixth of the world’s population, the largest organized body of any world religion.[7][183] It is known for its ability to use its transnational ties and organizational strength to bring significant resources to needy situations[184] and operates the world’s largest non-governmental school system.[185] Although the number of practicing Catholics worldwide is not reliably known,[186] membership is growing particularly in Africa and Asia.[6]”

  • JabbaPapa

     “such as its declaration on religious freedom,”

    ## Without any explanation as to how it is not incompatible with past teaching

    It isn’t.

    Religious freedom is merely an aspect of Free Will, and of the requirement that the Faith must be freely chosen.

    “and its opening the door to an undreamt of era of ecumenism.”

    ## Which has been built on the shifting sand of half-truth and equivocation, not on rock

    The Vatican II teaching on Ecumenism does not require the assent of every Catholic.

    This doctrine is not only non-infallible, but it is also, and quite clearly, susceptible to future changes.

    It is frequently confused with interreligious dialogue, which doesn’t exactly help people to understand it.

  • John Morrison

    You prevent This article and the one on MrsMcLeod from being emailed.No send symbol on the form.50+ years of no cathechesis.Bishops in complicity with sex perverts.BishopsE ngaged in ERastianismConfession lines miniscule.Communion lines tremendous.Traditionalist dissent strongly discouraged

  • John Morrison

    Strongly disagree with what you call achievemnts.Most Jews are secular.THe orthodox .especially the Russian are noted for their criminal behavior.THe Ecumenism is of little value.Religious freedom .No way here in OBama land.Freedom is only for those who can afford the tremendously expensive SHYSTERS.