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Interview with Cardinal Roger Etchegaray By Edward Pentin, Rome correspondent
12 September 2007
Since he was invited to Rome to head the Pontifical Council of Justice and Peace in 1984, Cardinal Roger Etchegaray became one of Pope John Paul II’s closest and most trusted cardinals of the Roman Curia. The French cardinal undertook many missions on behalf of the late Pontiff, including organising the World Day of Prayer for Peace in Assisi in 1986, and the Jubilee Year celebrations. But his special missions didn’t end when he retired in 1998. Five years later, he was sent to Baghdad as John Paul’s peace envoy in a bid to prevent the Iraq War. And in August this year, aged 84, he called in on Patriarch Alexy II in Moscow and visited a Catholic diocese in Siberia. He spoke Sept. 12 with Vatican correspondent Edward Pentin, at his apartment in Rome.
What was the purpose of your recent visit to Moscow?
I spent ten days in Russia during the month of August. This wasn’t the first time I’d been there. Since the fall of Communism, I’ve been to Moscow more than ten times. And I know Patriarch Alexy II well. This trip that I have just undertaken was on the invitation of the Catholic bishops. There are four Catholic bishops in this immense country that is Russia, because there are Catholics there after all, of various different origins. These four dioceses are the largest in the world. Irkutsk, for example, crosses four time zones. Patriarch Alexy II and I have known each other for more than 30 years and, dare I say it, would vouch that we are old friends. During this visit, I brought him a message from the Pope, a message of fraternity, because relations between Moscow and Rome have had their ups and downs, though they never froze over as some have said.
You said on your return that everyone wants Pope Benedict and Patriarch Alexy to meet. But if that’s the case, what is stopping the visit? If the will is so great, cannot these obstacles be easily overcome?
We know from others, and from what both the Patriarch and the Pope have said, that for a long time there has been a desire to meet. We know there was a project begun ten years ago for them to meet in Austria – where the Pope is at the moment. That meeting will take place. The climate is better now. Benedict XVI wants this meeting as much as John Paul II did, although there’s no specific date or venue yet. But everyone hopes this meeting will take place without having to wait much longer, because it would be a good thing. This encounter with the East is most necessary as a witness to these two great Churches who, of course, worship the same Christ, and also have in common the great tradition of the Early Church Fathers. The Russian church, as with all the Orthodox churches, are carriers of the rich tradition of the teaching of the Early Church Fathers of the first centuries, of a monastic life that is also very, very large. So, this meeting, nothing is fixed, but it will be. Certainly, it’s reasonable to ask why it has it not taken place when this meeting has been talked about for so many years and there is this very strong desire for it on both sides. The Patriarch explained the reasons why to me several times the other day: he doesn’t want this to be, dare I say it, a ‘spectacular’ meeting, to seem as though it was done for the press, for public relations and public opinion. The Patriarch, and the Pope as well, want it to be an encounter in truth. In recent times, officials from the two churches have been able to work effectively together more and more on common problems, social problems, that confront them and which in Russia run very deep. Then there are also the problems of education, culture – so there are these frequent contacts between the two countries. And consequently, the climate is now suitable for a day when, if it pleases God and it’s not too late, to have this meeting. God alone can say. The simple fact that such a meeting can take place in spirit and in truth will be a sign for Catholic and Orthodox that they really are closer to one another and want to witness together the same Gospel.
In February 2002, Pope John Paul II created four new dioceses in Russia, a decision which did not go down very well among some of the Russian Orthodox hierarchy. In retrospect, was that a mistake?
It is true that when these 4 dioceses were created, there wasn’t the best possible outcome, but basically Orthodox as much as Catholics nevertheless recognized the legitimacy of the presence of the Catholic Church in Russia. Besides, to cite a very concrete case, during my recent visit I was a guest of these Catholic bishops. When I met the Patriarch in Moscow on the way to Siberia, he did not speak of any difficulty. He sees that the Catholic Church is a Church that also needs to be supported, encouraged by the Pope and his representatives. So currently, there are not any real problems between our two churches concerning these four dioceses. Besides, on August 15, on my way back, I celebrated Mass in Moscow’s Catholic cathedral without any difficulty. So fortunately, and therefore consequently, the small misunderstandings that there were at the time of the creation of theses dioceses have dissipated. Today, the Catholic church is well represented in a country that is, above all, Orthodox, and it doesn’t ignore the great church tradition in Russia.
You were president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace from 1984 until 1998, and also for some of that time president of Cor Unum. What were the most memorable moments for you during that time?
I have some memories of working in those two dicasteries: Justice and Peace, as you said, and Cor Unum, both entrusted to me by Pope John Paul II after he called on me in Marseilles in 1984 to come here to Rome with him. My lasting memories are of my deep collaboration with John Paul II. John Paul II had a very clear direction, of the Church’s place in the world and consequently the importance of justice and peace. That showed throughout his pontificate. Still, it’s necessary to say that I was a close assistant in helping the Catholic Church to really witness the Gospel to others, and especially to those that suffer. Perhaps my best memory was Assisi in 1986. I hadn’t been in Rome long, but the Pope entrusted me with the responsibility of organizing this great, historic gathering, , the first time it had occurred in history. The Pope had called for a day of prayer for peace not only for Christian churches but all religions. Assisi was, I believe, the departure point for an acceleration in inter-religious dialogue. Because although dialogue between Christian denominations had, fortunately, gone on a for a relatively long time, dialogue with non-Christian religions – Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, those of the East and so many traditional or, as we say, animist religions, particularly in Africa – Church dialogue with all those religions didn’t exist in a practical sense. Assisi prompted a process of dialogue that has now been developed. There’s still a lot to do, especially with religions of the East. Because in the East, the Far East, and I’m thinking particularly about China, a country that is very dear to me, Catholics still have much to learn about these people. And all the efforts made to understand these large Asian populations are absolutely necessary so they can be completely part of humanity, part of the large human family, and so all people of the East as well as West can consider themselves really members of the same family, united by God.
In March 2003, Pope John Paul II sent two peace envoys to try to avert the Iraq War. He sent Cardinal Pio Laghi to President Bush in Washington, and he sent you to meet Saddam Hussein in Baghdad. Can you share with us what happened at that meeting?
First of all, [Saddam Hussein’s] hanging was an occasion for deep reflection for humanity on the role of the death penalty, on capital punishment. But it is true, I was sent to Saddam Hussein scarcely a few weeks before the outbreak of the war. It is difficult for me to talk about the content of this discussion. He received me for about an hour and a half at a very critical moment as the war was imminent. And I was, as someone said, a ‘last chance’ envoy. It is true, and I believe I told journalists this, that I felt then almost the extremities of hope. But it was necessary to the end that the Pope gave a sign to say that it was still possible to believe in peace, that all could be resolved without a war which, as he often said, was the absurd solution.
The contact that I had with Saddam, who was no angel as we know, was an encounter that perhaps allowed me to discover the mystery of the man, a man who, whatever he’d done in the past, had a conscience. I tried to present myself not as a politician which I wasn’t, and even less as a military man. I don’t have any major knowledge of the military, but I tried to engage him a little – which took time – to engage the conscience of the man sitting opposite me, because everyone has a conscience that always needs to be clear, to aim towards the good. I believe I can say that in the dialogue I had with him there was a man who, though very different, not only allowed me to engage with him, but who also had a conscience. I am, above all, a man of God, also a man of prayer, and I told him that. During this long discussion, I squeezed a rosary in my hand and my thoughts carried themselves towards God. So I was a small, humble person, a minor representative with another man who had responsibilities vis-à-vis his people.
What is your assessment of the situation now in Iraq?
It is sad. It is sad to see this same country, the Iraqi people – I don’t want to make a political or military judgment – not succeed in being able to live in peace and to also live in their diversity. This is not a country lacking variety, the people are very diverse there. Islam is very diverse - the Sunnis and the Shiites. I have been able to meet the Iraqi people – I’ve been to Iraq three times. I met Saddam twice. I was there at the time of the Iran-Iraq War, and as it was my job to globetrot in the name of the Pope in the service of justice and peace, I’ve visited many countries. And on returning to Iraq, I realized that the Iraqi people, with their diverse history, culture and religion, deserve to live in justice and peace.
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