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Cardinals: liturgical abuse weakens the faith

By on Thursday, 3 March 2011

Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera elevates the Eucharist during a Mass at the Basilica of St John Lateran in Rome (CNS photo/Paul Haring)

Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera elevates the Eucharist during a Mass at the Basilica of St John Lateran in Rome (CNS photo/Paul Haring)

A weakening of faith in God, a rise in selfishness and a drop in the number of people going to Mass can be traced to liturgical abuse or Masses that are not reverent, two Vatican cardinals and a consultant have said.

US Cardinal Raymond Burke, head of the Vatican’s supreme court, said: “If we err by thinking we are the centre of the liturgy, the Mass will lead to a loss of faith.”

Cardinal Burke and Spanish Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, spoke yesterday at a book launch in Rome.

The book, published only in Italian, was written by Fr Nicola Bux, who serves as a consultant to the congregations for the doctrine of the faith and for saints’ causes and to the office in charge of papal liturgies.

The English translation of Fr Bux’s book title would be, How to Go to Mass and Not Lose Your Faith.

Cardinal Burke told those gathered for the book presentation that he agreed with Fr Bux that “liturgical abuses lead to serious damage to the faith of Catholics”.

Unfortunately, he said, too many priests and bishops treat violations of liturgical norms as something that is unimportant when, in fact, they are “serious abuses”.

Cardinal Cañizares said that while the book’s title is provocative, it demonstrates a belief he shares. “Participating in the Eucharist can make us weaken or lose our faith if we do not enter into it properly,” and if the liturgy is not celebrated according to the Church’s norms, he said.

“This is true whether one is speaking of the Ordinary or Extraordinary form of the one Roman rite,” the cardinal said.

Cardinal Cañizares said that at a time when so many people are living as if God did not exist, they need a true Eucharistic celebration to remind them that only God is to be adored and that true meaning in human life comes only from the fact that Jesus gave his life to save the world.

Fr Bux said that too many modern Catholics think the Mass is something that the priest and the congregation do together when, in fact, it is something that Jesus does.

“If you go to a Mass in one place and then go to Mass in another, you will not find the same Mass. This means that it is not the Mass of the Catholic Church, which people have a right to, but it is just the Mass of this parish or that priest,” he said.

  • DBMcGinnity

    Dear Leprechaun
    It is an Anathema to logic and reason that you to use the names Joseph Ratzinger and Lucia de Santos in the same paragraph.

    It was Joseph Ratzinger who ordered (the substituted) Lucy to be ‘walled up’ in solitary confinement and to be seen by only a few selected people because of her secret; that she was a fraud. Lucia de Santos died in the Convent of Immaculate Heart of Mary Sisters of St. Dorothy in 1948 and she was substituted as a Carmelite nun in the Convent in Coimbra, Portugal. It is believed by many that she was intellectually challenged and could not read or write, never mind being able to pontificate on “Diabolic Disorientation”

    I have known this since 1962, so I gather that the whole world will know about it, thanks to Wikipedia. It was suspected from the beginning that Fatima was a flagrant fraud to deal with the possible fallout from the Russian Revolution. The apparitions at of Our Lady at Fatima and The Immaculate Conception at Lourdes can be easily replicated and exposed as fraudulent using post hypnotic suggestion. It is easy to do.

    In fact, the Apparition at Lourdes of Bernadette Soubirous has been replicated under precise clinical and ethical conditions by a group of psychiatrists, psychologists and academic Catholic priests in 1974 .The findings proved beyond doubt that post-hypnotic suggestion techniques were employed to perpetrate this phenomenon. It can be replecated again, anytime under strict objective academic clinical conditions.

    A moral and ethical dilemma arose for the researchers which was: The researchers believed that it would be catastrophic for the Church to expose this fraud because so many millions of Catholics accepted this fallacy as dogma, and the question was. “If you take away these peoples’ faith, what would you replace it with”? They feared that; “The law of unintended consequences” could kick in, with disastrous results, so it was thought ethical to leave this as a clinical experiment.

    The real challenge to The Roman Catholic Church dogma is Wikipedia. It used to be unreliable at the beginning, but now the information (once verified from another reliable source) is in most cases, accurate. There are many more secrets for Wikipedia to give up about the antics of The Catholic Church in the years to come that are not very pretty, and there is nothing the Church can do about it.

  • Anonymous

    A friend of mine e-mailed me and asked me to join in this thread – I’m not sure if I can make a response to DBMcGinnity – it is very difficult to argue with mental illness/irrational responses. I think he/she stands condemned by his/her own words, by what he/she has said about Sr Lucia. Obviously, he/she is a worshipper of the great omnipotent God Wikipedia, who knows and sees all. Perhaps he/she ought to stay on Wikipedian blogs and ignore Catholic blogs like this. All we can do is pray . . .

  • Anonymous

    Given a choice between how to gain eternal life according to Wikipedia on the one hand, and the revealed word of Jesus Christ on the other, I would without doubt put my trust in Our Saviour.

    May I suggest that you consider doing the same?

    God bless you.

  • Anonymous

    RTUALISM, DOGMATISM, DRAMA(TISM) HAVE CERTAINLY DESTROYED FAITH AND DRIVEN OUT YOUNG PEOPLE EVERYWHERE FROM THE CHURCH. BRING BACK THE LIVING WORD OF GOD, AND THE YOUNG WILL COME BACK TO THE CHURCH; PRIESTS WHO ARE NOT FIT TO GIVE THE WORD OF GOD TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD SHOULD BE BANNED FROM THE MINISTRY AND THEN THE CHURCH WILL GROW AND THRIVE.

  • Anonymous

    ? ? ?

  • Anonymous

    Our conversation up to this point has been positive and considerate, but I must change tone with you for a moment and be honest about the impression your last post gives me.

    You betray an arrogance and an intentional ignorance to other possibilities that is beyond measure when you claim that my differing position from yours regarding the Mass is due to the fact that I must not have truly understood the Mass. Do you not consider the greater likelihood that I actually truly do understand the Mass as well as you and that I have studied it as much as you, but that I have come to different conclusions? Your claim that yours is the only way to see things is the very antithesis of open-heartedness and reception to the truth. You are closed to new knowledge if this is the only way you are able to see the world, how you see theology, or how you see the church.

    Lastly, you still have not given any evidence regarding the need for Latin in the church mass or how this inclusion of Latin is crucial to returning the church to grace, which you tactily seem to admit can be achieved without it. You continually veer off from that basic issue of Latin in the Mass and you speak poetically about conversions to Mary and books I should read. But, in terms of logical argument, you have dodged the primary issue we began discussing – Latin. I assume from this dodge you understand and accept the basic point – that grace and holiness have nothing to do with what language we speak during Mass.

  • DBMcGinnity

    pat21 (very Important)
    May I suggest that you make your mind up very quickly about what you are going to do about the imputation that you make “I’m not sure if I can make a response to DBMcGinnity – it is very difficult to argue with mental illness/irrational responses” NB.. Imputation in Law, (ignorance of the law does not excuse) May I suggest you take advice and act very quickly !! dbmcginnity@aol.com

    I have known about the Fatima Farce sine 1962 and about the Soubirous Research since 1974 long before Wikipedia. I rarely use Wikipedia, but I do acknowledge it’s value and dangers, as many students used to misuse it in their academic work. Those days are ended, thank goodness.

    Since your post I have looked up the topic on Wikipedia, http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g11htTwoSisterLucys_Horvat.htm
    My God there are photographs to verify that fraud was committed and much more. I am going to delve deeper and I will validate and verify my findings with others in the know.

    As always with Wikipedia, I will check with sound academic sources. All your he/ she and it nonsense suggests that you have a disparaging, doubting nature, instead of thinking; could this be true? I would like to find out the truth.

    The real secret of Fatima is that the Catholic Church has been found to be using fraud and subterfuge, like the True Cross and The Shroud of Turin to support their fallacies that do not withstand academic inquiry or scientific scrutiny.

    Let us out put the “Post Hypnotic Suggestion Theory” regarding Fatima and Lourdes to the test and Radiocarbon Dating to the True Cross and The Shroud of Turin. Are you willing to test this out??

  • Anonymous

    It is disapponting that you feel it necessary to adopt a more aggressive tone.

    I see nothing arrogant in upholding the Truth. Truth is unique and does not lend itself to different interpretations. A flame will burn you. Staring at the sun will blind you. There are no alternatives to these two examples. One of the great advantages of Latin as a language is that it is a dead language and the meanings of its words will not change with the passage of time. For example, consider what the word “gay” used to mean, and what it is taken to mean today.

    I do not know what you experience when you attend Mass. I know what I experience, and that the Latin liturgy has guarded the meaning of the Mass, and with it, the Graces that flow from it, for centuries, and I see nothing closed-hearted or rejective of the Truth in holding that opinion.

    As far as new knowledge goes, you are talking like a Modernist. You are welcome to your views and I trust you will permit me to adhere to the views of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, as that is the root of my views.

    In conclusion, grace and holiness were ensured for every faith filled Mass-goer whilst the Traditional Latin Mass held sway, but see for yourself how they have wilted like some drought-stricken flower since the replacement of the Latin Mass with the Protestant-style celebration of the Lord’s Supper.

    The survival of grace and holiness has a great deal to do with the fact that the liturgy was written in Latin and the Faithful need to return to that same Latin again – as one day, please God, they will.

  • DBMcGinnity

    Please translate: deus vocatus atque invocatus aderit

  • Anonymous

    You still are not listening – you are only lecturing me. I did not and do not question the truth of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church (and your subtle quotes of the mass are also full of condescension – yes, I recognize the profession of faith when I see it!). And your explanation of the benefits of Latin being a dead language proves that you have not heard me when I already stated that I continue to study Latin and understand its relevance. I only contradict your view that it is a solution to the problems of the church’s current immoral center.

    My change in tone was directly related to your arrogant assertion that my position, which is different from yours, must come from an inability to understand the Mass. I find that statement of yours to be offensive and close-minded. You do not allow for other ideas. The fact that you are more interested in pigeon-holing me into a label like Modernist (which I would not use to describe myself, so I reject such a baseless label from you) again underscores your unwillingness to listen in favor of insisting that you have access to special truths.

    I too have been exposed to those same truths – in the Bible, in the Mass and in the knowledge of Christ. I repudiate your claim that you somehow have greater understanding of any of those things. I disagree with you. Period. Thus, you may argue and present information to support your opinion, but to appeal to the false idea that somehow you understand that Mass, Jesus, or the Bible better than me is an ugly exposure of your own ignorance of your fellow man’s ability to think.

  • Anonymous

    If you mean: “deus vocatus atque non vocatus aderit” it can be translated as “Bidden or not bidden, God is present”, not that I am familiar with the works of Jung.

  • Anonymous

    I do listen. Just because my views do not coincide with your own does not mean that I doubt your ability to think. You are free to think what you wish, as am I.

    I do have access to special truths. So do you. They are the Teachings of the Catholic Church. The difference between us seems to be that I accept them, whilst you wish to discuss that there may be alternatives to them. I beg to differ.

    We can agree that the Shepherd seems to have lost his way somewhat, what with the fast track beatification of Pope John-Paull II and the reconvening of the Assisi group, but it will pass and sound leadership will return eventually.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t need your permission to be free to think what I wish. This is exactly my point. The difference between you and me is that I engage in the exchange of information and ideas, whereas you claim that those who disagree with you can’t possibly truly understand the Mass. Reread our conversation, please. You’ll find that between the two of us, only you claimed a special hold on truth.

    And I also don’t need your recommendations on what to pray for, either. For now, I’m going to pray for you to learn some humility. I’ll also pray that you stop representing your own personal opinions as dogma.

  • Anonymous

    Yes, let’s try to emulate Christ, shall we? But let’s also not lose ourself in the trappings of the Mass. If you listen to some Catholics on this topic, they’ll try to tell you that Christ himself spoke Latin!

  • Anonymous

    DBMcGinnity,

    I have read your post and the one below where you give a link to the Tradition in Action website. This website contains some good stuff but I am always very wary of it because it is linked to the Family Tradition, Property group about whom I have serious reservations. So, along with Wiki, you have offered us another dodgy source. Not to worry. Good try.

    Having read through the article on the TIA website about the “two Lucys” (I gave Wiki a wide body-swerve) it struck me that – fantastic as is the hypothesis – the possibility of an imposter Sr Lucy is not merely irrelevant, but if there was even a shred of a possibility that this was true (which I seriously doubt ++++++) it would serve merely to confirm the facts that we already know; and the key fact is that the Vatican have suppressed the Third Secret (or a major part of it) and that they did not want anyone questioning Sr Lucy – whether real or imposter! – on why the Pope persistently refuses to publish the full Secret, and to consecrate Russia.

    Now, the fact is that you are anti-Catholic, Sugar Plum, so you are not interested in the truth of the Fatima message at all – your comments make that clear. You ignore the fact that every single Fatima prophesy has come true, except the one about various nations to be annihiliated, although that seems on its way to fulfilment as we write (didn’t Japan have quite a narrow escape recently???)

    You ignore, too, the fact that over 70,000 people witnessed the miracle of the sun, prophesied to the day and the hour and reported in the secular newspaper at the time, with the Communist mayor converting to Catholicism on the spot, after witnessing the miracle – all of that has passed you – and your Wikepedia pals – completely by.

    And as for “The real challenge to the RC Church dogma is Wikepedia…” – don’t make me laugh a hollow laugh. Are you kidding? The Church has lasted two thousand years, despite every effort by enemies, from both within and without, to destroy her, but Christ has remained true to His promise to be with His Church until the end of the world: “The gates of Hell” He promised “will never prevail against (His Church)

    Wikipedia Vs Christ? No contest.

  • Anonymous

    Not another legal threat! Why do people DO that? Honestly, hilarious doesn’t even begin to cut it.

    You sue pat21 and you won’t know what’s hit you (metaphorically speaking of course!)

    Behave yourself.

  • Anonymous

    This article accurately states the problem & solution for today’s worshiping public.

  • Anonymous

    DBMcGinnity,

    You are being very nasty to the point of vicious about the Catholic religion, our beliefs, devotional practices, the lot. Why?

    Indeed, you are deliberately being insulting, placing the Traditional Mass on the same level as a bunch of operas – Madame Butterfly is not my cup of tea, I have to admit. Yawn.

    And to quote atheist George Bernard Shaw to support your vicious remarks is a bit like the now released “Lockerbie Bomber” quoting Colonel Gaddafi with approval. Big deal.

    What is really very sad is that you are participating in this Catholic blog when you are obviously not a Catholic and, moreover, you harbour an irrational hatred of the Catholic Faith, so I have to presume that you are a lonely soul, without friends of your own religious (or not) persuasion, so may I suggest that if you want to add to your Christmas card list, you begin here by engaging courteously in discussions. We’ll happily answer your questions about the truths of our Faith and the truth about devotional practices of which there are countless numbers. I’ve been to the Vatican more than once and never seen any of the stuff you claim to have seen.

    I’ve seen massive numbers of people walking round in circles and throwing stones at an imaginary devil in Mecca, so why not shoot off to find a blog on Islam and try insulting them for a change.

    Thought not. At least when you insult us you can be reasonably sure of waking up in the morning.

  • Anonymous

    I am grateful to you for your prayers. Having read “True Devotion to Mary” and consecrated myself to her, I do try to be humble, and your prayers will surely assist me in that.

    As I said earlier, all the Faithful have access to the special hold on truth that you instance. It comes from a good, sound Catholic formation, except that one has to search for it these days since Religious Instruction ceased to be on the curriculum in our “Catholic” schools forty years ago. Not all Catholics choose to take the opportunity to search which is why so many are blissfully unaware of the crisis in which the Church finds itself.

    The representation of my personal opinions as dogma is an uncharitable thing to say. I adhere to what the Church teaches and as far as saving my soul goes, what I think is what the Church requires me to think, for to disagree is to be in dissent. Consequently, what I am upholding cannot be considered my personal opinion.

    I shall be off air for a few days now while I take a short holiday so please do not think I am not ignoring any response you may make.

    God bless you.

  • DBMcGinnity

    Very good. Now I understand “The Assumption” that it is moral and ethical for you to pronounce that I am not a Catholic, and that I live alone and am without friends etc, even though we have never met. You make the assumption of what might be the outcome of legal action, if I issued a writ against pat21. You are a lawyer too. It seems that pat21 is a catholic, and assumes that I am mentally ill even though it takes a psychiatrist many hours of observation, dialogue and tests to make such a pronouncement, and even then it is called a provisional diagnosis. However, what pat21 has done is very foolish and unsafe. It is against the law to refer to someone as being mentally ill and it could result in legal action. Please check this out with the editor and legal department of The Catholic Herald.

    Yes it is fine for anyone to say that I am mistaken, or that they refute my assertions and of course give their reasons. But making facile rhetorical comments that ’my cup of ignorance runneth over” or that I am mentally ill says more about the person making the remarks and devalues the integrity of the Catholic Church. If I argue an academic point with a Buddhist, they do not resort to rhetorical abuse; they go away and reflect and re-examine the topic. My Protestant and Jewish friends do likewise. However, it is usual for poorly informed, unsophisticated Catholics and Muslims go into a rage on indignation.

    You and pat21 claim to be Catholics, yet it says clearly in the eight commandment that it is a sin to bear false witness through calumny and detraction or to impugn the good name of another. In the light of this, your reaction and your attitude to my presentation is a paradox.

    In the Church of St John Lateran there are stairs called ‘scala santa’ and I have been there many times.

  • Anonymous

    Typical. You can say what you like about our holy Faith but anyone who dares to criticise you is heading for the courts.

    See you there.

    ps There are plenty of churches in Rome with their own devotional customs. To say “the Vatican” gives the impression of some official action. I know about the custom to which you refer but why on earth have you been there many times if you think it is all so wacky? Odd, by any standards.

    Now sue me.

  • DBMcGinnity

    You have not checked out legal issues with the editor or legal department of The Catholic Herald.

    Let us lighten things up a bit. Please read, “Knots” by R.D. Laing and “Finnegans Wake” by James Joyce. Try reading a bit of “Lateral Thinking” by Edward DeBono. It is great stuff !!! It enables people to “see the unseen” through reasoning, deduction and logic, instead of by superstition and generalised tomfoolery Also, as Jesus has risen from the dead and has Ascended into Heaven, body and soul, and is alive and well, and was last seen walking about in Newport Pagnell, what is all the worry about?

  • Anonymous

    Why don’t you check out the Equality Legislation to see if your hate-filled comments about the Catholic religion cross the line? I do hope I’m wrong about you, DBMcGinnity, but right now you are coming across as a very nasty piece of work. With all due respect, of course. If you write again, in the blasphemous manner of your concluding sentence above, I will be forced to report your comment as offensive and blasphemous. Don’t push me.

    Thanks for the recommended reading. Allow me to recommend some reading for you.

    Why not begin with “There IS a God” by Anthony Flew, former fundamentalist atheist, described by our blog hosts at The Catholic Herald as “…the most lucid and penetrative piece of philosophical theology to appear in years; altogether brilliant.”

  • DBMcGinnity

    I am familiar with the works of Anthony Flew “There is a God”, as well as Atheistic Humanism (1993) and Philosophical Essays of Antony Flew (1997). I understand what he said and what he meant regarding DNA. The origins of life will never be known. I wrote in an earlier post that a eminent professor of astronomy told me: “we expected to discover the origins of life in the Big Bang Theory and with CERN only to discover that there may have been trillions and trillions of big bangs. I am not an atheist and I have always believed in God and I have always attended Mass and I have celebrated Mass. I go to Mass (modern and traditional) and several other churches of all denominations, because God is there too. The song “All kinds of Everything” remind me of God. God is not to be found in illogical and obscure Catholic dogma

    I imagine that you believe in poltergeists ghosts, stigmata, crying statues, the evil one, the trinity, the virgin birth, the immaculate conception, the assumption etc. Have you ever made your own objective inquiry as to their validity? With objective study all of these phenomenon can be easily explained through faulty perception caused by mistaken stimuli or disordered neuro-transmission or neuro-chemistry.

    Sacred visions, apparitions and spiritual revelations can be tested and shown to be nothing more than hallucinations and there is a plethora of research to support this premise. Stigmata is a psycho-somatic reaction that can be induced in someone who has never heard of Jesus Christ. One of the first rules of research is (search anywhere and everywhere for as many explanations for anything and everything because the human mind has an inbuilt tendency to be closed and to accept the easiest option.

    The Catholic Church had relied on keeping people in ignorance and reinforcing closed minds for centuries. Then the reformation opened up learning, education, debate, and discussion, and the people discovered that Catholic dogma was not reasoned or rational. Like today, the conduct and behaviour of the priests and Bishops and Popes did nothing to reassure them that the Catholic Church was ethical or moral. In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church has been and still is putrid. It is a fulminating disease steeped in greed, cruelty and child abuse and still permeates every facet of Irish life and has destroyed the hearts, souls and minds of the people. Not the stuff of Jesus Christ

  • Anonymous

    It is YOU and not Catholic dogma that is “illogical”

    You say, e.g. that you attend Mass (and “celebrate” Mass – what on earth does that mean? Are you a failed priest?) And you say that you attend various other denominations “because God is there, too” without explaining how you know that, and without apparently, recognizing that it is illogical to believe that God is the source of contradictory beliefs. God does not change. He cannot mandate His Church to teach in His name and then give His blessing to apostates and heretics who reject that basic premise of Catholicism.

    You obviously pride yourself on being an objective thinker, finding out the truth for yourself, big guy stuff.

    Doesn’t work that way. Christ told His first pope and bishops: “He that hears you, hears Me.” If you think you are a Catholic but can discard beliefs you disdain, then you think wrong, Sugar Plum. People who reject the Church’s teaching authority, are, by definition, Protestants. Not, to use use your phrase, the “stuff” of Jesus Christ. Not one bit.

    Reflect.

  • DBMcGinnity

    I am not a failed anything, (except that I failed to give compassion and understanding to those who needed it most earlier in my life). Now I mix with school children, battered wives, drunks and drug addicts, prostitutes and all manner of social misfits, most of whom are pagans and atheists. What do you suggest should be done with all these “God forsaken” people?

    Now what shall be done with the Protestants, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and not forgetting The Orthodox Communions, and several Indo-China sects: the list seems to be endless. There must be tens of millions of pagans and heathens who have never heard of Jesus, and never will. What about all the souls that lived and died over tens of thousands of years before Christ? What happens to them? What do you suggest should happen to people who are not of your brand of Catholic?
    I mix with many Catholics, who think like me that God is everywhere and in everyone. Are we all wrong?

  • Auricularis

    There is nothing to stop you joining the “Church” of England – you certainly sound like you’d be more at home there

  • Auricularis

    A complete straw argument from Ginnity:your assertions (typical of liberal Catholics) relies on whatever you happen to feel at the moment and not objective truth. You must know that the church has always taught that if anyone, through no fault of their own, does not hear the gospel preached to them, will be judged by God on how well their lives corresponded to the natural law? God created one church: not a plethora of religions. He has given us the surest way to Heaven, through the Catholic church. It is up to us to bring this good news to others. If we don’t, then we will be severely judged.

  • DBMcGinnity

    Objective Truth and Good News are a Bit Late

    Quoting the bible chapter and verse and regurgitating rote learned slogans are meaningless. Repeating and spouting Roman Catholic catechism and doctrine like a music hall recitation or like the indoctrinated creed of a Madrasah does not make it credible. The old adage that “nonsense is still nonsense no matter how long it has been practiced” hold true and apply to Catholic doctrine because, illogical and unsustainable dogma remain illogical and unsustainable no matter how many times they are repeated or what saint has said so.

    For example, in 1854. Pope Pius IX decreed the doctrine of The Immaculate Conception,. Many thoughtful Catholics questioned his logic. However he got around this by arranging the apparition of The Immaculate Conception in Lourdes in 1858. When deep thinking people saw through the deception and did not accept it, he then went on to proclaim his own infallibility in 1870. He decreed that people must believe the Pope. This is the sort of thing that Caligula did, he made himself a God, whereas Pope Pius IX thought he was God.

    In 1950, Pope Pius XII decreed the doctrine of “The Assumption of our Lady into Heaven” Body and Soul. He decreed this nonsensical and impossible phenomenon to be an article of Faith. The vulnerable believed this. It is absolutely ridiculous and an embarrassment that many Irish girls were called “Assumpta” Imagine being called that? What a legacy?

    It is a great indictment on the integrity of the Roman Catholic Church, especially in this day and age (and in this paper) that Roman Catholic Church defenders habitually resort to uttering: caustic rhetoric, disparaging sarcasm, vilification, condemnation, denigration and belittling, not to mention defamation of anyone who proffers an reasoned proposition, seeks clarification, or raises ambiguous issues. Very seldom are there incisive deliberations and logical reasoned responses to any argument and very little sign of perceptive lateral thinking. Possessing fundamental Catholic zeal and expressions of vociferous piety, will not save the church. Is does not matter who is right, the question is: What is right?

    The Venerable Diarmuid Martin Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland is on record as saying that the church is in rapid decline, and admitted it would last only another ten years. He acknowledges that the Church has made it’s own problems through it’s authoritarian attitudes. He says “ In all honesty, I must add that the lack of real representation of parent’s interests in educational policy is partly due to the model of Catholic education which the Church itself fostered where the Church placed emphasis on control”. It is because of hostile and venomous division in the Church (frequently expressed in this paper), that “the gates of hell have prevailed against it”. No amount of nasty, acrimonies and facile argument about “who is right” is going to change that.

  • DBMcGinnity

    Objective Truth and Good News are a Bit Late

    Quoting the bible chapter and verse and regurgitating rote learned slogans are meaningless. Repeating and spouting Roman Catholic catechism and doctrine like a music hall recitation or like the indoctrinated creed of a Madrasah does not make it credible. The old adage that “nonsense is still nonsense no matter how long it has been practiced” hold true and apply to Catholic doctrine because, illogical and unsustainable dogma remain illogical and unsustainable no matter how many times they are repeated or what saint has said so.

    For example, in 1854. Pope Pius IX decreed the doctrine of The Immaculate Conception,. Many thoughtful Catholics questioned his logic. However he got around this by arranging the apparition of The Immaculate Conception in Lourdes in 1858. When deep thinking people saw through the deception and did not accept it, he then went on to proclaim his own infallibility in 1870. He decreed that people must believe the Pope. This is the sort of thing that Caligula did, he made himself a God, whereas Pope Pius IX thought he was God.

    In 1950, Pope Pius XII decreed the doctrine of “The Assumption of our Lady into Heaven” Body and Soul. He decreed this nonsensical and impossible phenomenon to be an article of Faith. The vulnerable believed this. It is absolutely ridiculous and an embarrassment that many Irish girls were called “Assumpta” Imagine being called that? What a legacy?

    It is a great indictment on the integrity of the Roman Catholic Church, especially in this day and age (and in this paper) that Roman Catholic Church defenders habitually resort to uttering: caustic rhetoric, disparaging sarcasm, vilification, condemnation, denigration and belittling, not to mention defamation of anyone who proffers an reasoned proposition, seeks clarification, or raises ambiguous issues. Very seldom are there incisive deliberations and logical reasoned responses to any argument and very little sign of perceptive lateral thinking. Possessing fundamental Catholic zeal and expressions of vociferous piety, will not save the church. Is does not matter who is right, the question is: What is right?

    The Venerable Diarmuid Martin Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland is on record as saying that the church is in rapid decline, and admitted it would last only another ten years. He acknowledges that the church has made it’s own problems through it’s authoritarian attitudes. He says “ In all honesty, I must add that the lack of real representation of parent’s interests in educational policy is partly due to the model of Catholic education which the Church itself fostered where the Church placed emphasis on control”. It is because of hostile and venomous division in the Church (frequently expressed in this paper), that “the gates of hell have prevailed against it”. No amount of nasty, acrimonies and facile argument about “who is right” is going to change that.

  • Fraidam

    DBMcGinnity, I will pray for you. I found it very hard to follow your very confused diatribe. You obviously don’t know who you are or what you believe.

  • Fraidanm

    Totally agree, but the problem with abuses in the Novus Ordo will be rectified over time as the Novus Ordo Mass will naturally die out. A large number of priestly vocations are going to orders that say the traditional Latin Mass and bigger seminaries are having to be built to accommodate them. Many Catholics except those who attend the traditional Mass are using contraception and so are not having children. Logically, this means that the traditional Latin Mass will become more widespread and the Novus Ordo will die out as the current generation of those bishops and priests and lay people who have supported the protestantisation of the Mass die off with few left who will wish to attend the Novus Ordo Mass. I simply can’t see the young children who have not been catechised, many of whom are still subjected to “boogie on down” guitar Masses, will continue on in the Faith of which they have no knowledge or understanding of.

  • Fraidam

    If you are a Catholic you subject yourself to the Church. Our Lord said, “What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” and so authority is given by God to the Church. Pope John Paul said it is theologically impossible to ordain women as the priest acts in persona Christi, and Christ was a man. The Holy Spirit guides the Church. The Mass has always been a sacrifice and not a meal – our Lord was the sacrificial lamb and replaced the sacrifice of the Jews where the priest offered the lamb raising it on high to God facing east then the lamb was consumed as we do at communion. The idea that the Mass is a meal is a protestant teaching. Not a Catholic teaching. If you wish to hold that view there are many protestant churches you can got to, where they also “ordain” priestesses who confect nothing and that is why many Anglicans are leaving the Anglican church.

  • DBMcGinnity

    “You obviously don’t know who you are or what you believe”.

    I would expect a committed catholic like you to do better than make a facile statement, that says nothing. How can you know that I don’t know who I am or what I believe? I thoroughly research everything before writing anything, and I can substantiate anything, I write. Can you not do me the Christian courtesy of guiding me in the error of my ways, as you see it, and I will genuinely reflect and meditate on what you your guidelines might be. Are you not supposed to instruct the ignorant in keeping with the spiritual works of mercy?

    I was certainly right about some peoples’ “denigration and belittling”, behaviours just like you have attempted to do, without much effect, I ‘m afraid. Do get back to me with your Christian suggestions, and thank you for your prayers, that is most altruistic and charitable, and they cancel out your initial denigrating, belittling and inane attitude.

  • DBMcGinnity

    GOOD FRIDAY IS A GOOD DAY FOR PERMANENT CHANGE TO “NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM”

    The Zeitgeist, for Papal Infallibility is Gone.
    The is no necessity these days for the Pope to be infallible of to be obeyed by anyone. All the disunity within the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church could be mended straight away by the Pope declaring that he is not infallible, and for him to recognise that the days of absolutist rulers and absolute monarchs are at an end. The integrity of humanity must be respected with the understanding that the world was not created, but is being created (still in the process of creation and is evolving all the time). Things have moved on since St. Athanasius in 295. Ignorant religious sanctity and zeal are no longer enough to sustain the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. Only rationality based on objective reasoning will suffice.

    I can only imagine, that the radical, intemperate and uncharitable opinions expressed by all sides of the “Catholic Argument” in The Catholic Herald are the “last of the few”, still living in the reign of Pius IX, Pius X and Pius XII. The Zeitgeist, for Papal Infallibility is Gone forever. What a shame. It is nearly fifty years since Vatican II and some people are living in the past; a past that is gone forever, and will never come back. Protestants are here to stay and are on the increase in Africa and the United States.

    If credible anecdotal information being circulated are true that the next pope will be American with a long papacy envisaged. It is most likely that the zealous prognostications of piety by the holier than thou, self righteous bigots (of all persuasions) will be expunged.

    The “Novus Ordo Seclorum” (Latin for “New Order of the Ages”) Mass. Let those with insight and perspicacity note: “Novus Ordo” appears on the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States. The motto is most commonly seen on the reverse side of the U.S. one dollar bill, which contains both sides of the Great Seal. This tells us the true story and the future of the Catholic Church of Rome. A Roman Catholic Church that will soon find it’s headquarters in Washington DC., Answer this: Why is the pagan “Obelisk of Augustus” in St Peters Square? What part did Pope IX have to play in the building of “The Washington Monument” which is (an obelisk), and why is this important to the future of the Roman Catholic Church?

    The Traditional Latin Mass (particularly SSPX) was and still is a wonderful, mystical and spiritual experience. But the concomitant attitudes of Catholic clergy within the Roman Catholic Church was not wonderful, mystical or spiritual. The Industrial Schools and Magdalene Laundries in Ireland was the epitome of Vatican cruelty with clerical acquiescence to child physical and sexual abuse. That ethos still exists in the Vatican. A brand new book claims to lift lid on sex secrets of the Vatican.
    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/new-book-claims-to-lift-lid-on-sex-secrets-of-the-vatican-2625944.html

  • DBMcGinnity

    SIGNS OF A TRUE FAITH.
    Yes, you are right, we need far more real life Crucifixions and proper blood sacrifices and plenty of suffering as in the sacrifice of The Mass. Each Mass should be the real thing, and not just a symbolic manifestation of the death of Christ. There should be more experiential (with real re-enactment) Mass’s. The article below explains how nearly two dozen Filipinos were nailed to crosses to re-enact the passion of Jesus Christ on Good Friday yesterday, despite being censured by church. The Catholic Church did not forbid them from doing it, they just disapproved and asked people not to do it. Read the article about this sick zealous catholic masochism. http://www.independent.ie/world-news/dozens-are-crucified-despite-censure-by-church-2627804.html

  • AgingPapist

    US Cardinal Raymond Burke, head of the Vatican’s supreme court, said:
    “If we err by thinking we are the centre of the liturgy, the Mass will
    lead to a loss of faith.”

    ————————————————————————————————————————————————————–

    How supremely laughable coming from a clown who never fails to make himself the “centre of the liturgy” with his trains longer than the Duchess of Cambridge had on her wedding day, or Her Majesty the Queen has at the state opening of Parliament. The wall of silence, secrecy, obstruction of justice, and perversion of the entire Roman Enterprise from Benedict XVI on down is what is the undoing of the Church. It has nothing to do with the liturgy itself where God and man always come together sacramentally. Yes, there is a place for the vertical and the horizontal in our public worship and we don’t need the likes of cardinals Burke, Llovera, and Pell to be forvever reminding us of it either.

  • Stateman26

    You have a romantic’s idea of what the Mass was like before Vatican II. Right-wingers have every reason to fear Benedict XVI will start to restrict the use of the museum piece liturgy of Pius V.

    The pope knows the Latin Church is no more. It has become an antiquarian’s dream. Latin music will always be with us, but the Latin Mass, or 1962 rite belong on the shelf of history. To collect dust.

    The English speaking Church needs an ALL ENGLISH liturgy. Not by borrowing wholesale Thomas Cranmer’s Anglican Mass or the various BCP versions from 1549 on, but to create a truly unique Catholic Mass for the Anglophone world. English is the lingua franca today (soon to be replaced by Mandarin Chinese and Hindi) not Latin.

  • AgingPapist

    Dear Friend, Try as you might, you will fail.

  • AgingPapist

    Martyjo, This is the last desperate gasp of the SSPX and their sedevacantist allies. B16 has dismissed their petitions. Eventually, they’ll have to join the Polish National Catholics or the Church of Utrecht. There is no room for them under the omophorion of the “magisterium”. They know it and so does B16.

  • AgingPapist

    Leprechaun, You might do well to take an aspirin, put on your jammies, and lie down until nurse comes to tuck you in for the night.

  • AgingPapist

    Russia has more active Christians today than the Pope’s Italy. It appears Our Lady has answered your prayers. So, where have you been in recent years? Please go back to the 50s Leprechaun and wallow in the 16th century if you must.

  • AgingPapist

    “If you take away these peoples’ faith, what would you replace it with”?

    ————————————————————————————————————-

    It is replaced with TRUTH!! Elusive but destructive to be sure. Something the Roman Church will have many opportunities in the near future to experience as the veil of fraud and deceit in so many areas of Church life is lifted. Faith will always be undermined and should be by illumination. As childish superstition is replaced by documented fact. If your faith has no room to be transformed by the sudden awareness of what is true (or that you realize “you’ve been had” by malevolent forces operating within the Church), your blind faith will be unable to withstand serious buffeting anyway.

  • AgingPapist

    and to you too Leprechaun even if you don’t realize God Himself can’t change the Truth. He will not turn fiction, your fiction, into it either.

  • Parasum

    The miracles of Jesus have also been replicated  – so what (if anything)  does that prove ? That Jesus was a charlatan with delusions of grandeur ? I hope not. 

    About this:

    “A moral and ethical dilemma arose for the researchers which was: The
    researchers believed that it would be catastrophic for the Church to
    expose this fraud because so many millions of Catholics accepted this
    fallacy as dogma, and the question was. “If you take away these peoples’
    faith, what would you replace it with”? They feared that; “The law of
    unintended consequences” could kick in, with disastrous results, so it
    was thought ethical to leave this as a clinical experiment.”

    That would be morally despicable – if the Church can’t be truthful, and has to rely on lies, then it should be suppressed, as a menace to society. If Jesus Christ is nothing more than a stinking rotting heap of bones in a grave in Palestine, I want to know. Life is too short to believe in frauds, & trust is too valuable to be given to them.

    ““If you take away these peoples’
    faith, what would you replace it with”?” – that’s easy: with truthfulness, honesty, good things like that. It’s immoral to perpetuate known falsehoods. And blasphemy to claim that they are revealed by God or in any way have His authority.

    “so many millions of Catholics accepted this
    fallacy as dogma” That is ignorant: there is all the difference possible between a dogma, and an alleged apparition. Dogmas must be accepted, but no alleged apparition need be. Priests in the group would know all this  – it passes belief that they did not. And it passes belief that clergy & others could possibly conspire – for conspiracy is what is being described -  to lie to millions. Or be so unscrupulous & muddle-headed.

    There are too many improbabilities in this story for it to be credible – or have you a credible source for it ?

  • Brett Page

    “Whenever two or more of you gather in my name, I will be there”.  He didn’t proscribe particular words or form.  He didn’t specify what hymns to sing or psalms to recite.  Just get together in my name and I’m with you, was His message. So lighten up folks.  He’s there in the woods when two people eat and remmeber Him.  He’s there in the space station miles above the Earth when two or more join in a meal in His memory. 

  • Jameshughes

    I couldn’t disagree more. went to mass in scotland, it was in Polish and I had a really hard time following what was going on . I am well aware that it was mass and I must have received some benefit but it was more like a penance just trying to work out and follow where we were in the liturgy. When mass was in latin I had no problem in that regard. I have no doubt that some vernacular input may help, particularly in the longer readings such as the gospel, and I hope that is what the holy father has in mind for the future. AMDG

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/B3HDWGG43M57WSA2AWNOFZIE6U Lucy

    How does this apply to Masses in Africa – with the wiggle room given in Vatican II on the Sacred Liturgy for Masses in this continent? If people think there are liturgical abuses in the West, they should witness Masses in Africa, they are packed with abuses, all under the guise of ‘inculturation’.

    Save the liturgy, Save the World.

  • Fr. Pietraszko

    Great Article.  One of the other problems I find narrowing down what exactly is a liturgical abuse, when it is labelled as a “legitimate pastoral adaptation.”  I think in general the issue is rather an invisible one that requires a sense of deep conversion in the interior life of each Christian, which is to submit oneself in total obedience to God through the Church, his Body.  With this only remaining an ideology, people will continue to spin what God’s will is in various circumstances, relativizing absolutely everything by there “one exception to the rule.”  Exceptions have become a norm, and for this reason have given licence to so many to practice the faith as they want, since the legislators and leaders of the Church law, apparently have given themselves permission to ignore one law, then two laws, and then only keeping to the bare-min of laws before they get in trouble. 

    Conversion, conversion, conversion is what is needed.

  • Manojcalm

    Statesman6…..I dont know what you are saying…. Come to the reall world. We young people are going in droves for the Tridentine. All the churches with tridentine litugies are full. We are learning this “Ancient but New” to us liturgy. We have started this new liturgy in our churches in keral India and we are learning. We are understanding the prominence of the liiturgical languages (latin, greek and hebrew) learning these mass parts. The same is the case in US I believe by the number of blogs i read about the tridentine liturgy. No more will the 1962 rite belong on the shelf of history. It will be engrained in our lives and we will ensure that our children will learn that and their children