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Ordinariate news: How many priests and people will come?

By on Friday, 11 March 2011

The three first priests of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham are ordained in Westminster Cathedral in January PA

The three first priests of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham are ordained in Westminster Cathedral in January PA

There’s been a lot of speculation about the numbers for the new Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham and varying reports on how many Anglican priests ceased their ministry on Ash Wednesday in order to join the ordinariate. They have begun preparation for reception and ordination. The numbers have ranged from 20 priests and 200 people to 75 priests and almost 1,000 people.

Fr Keith Newton, the Ordinary, said today that at present “it looks like over 60 priests and about 750 lay people” are set to join the ordinariate.

  • http://frstephensmuts.wordpress.com/ Fr Stephen Smuts

    What’s really sad to see this first week of Lent is that the Ordinarite has taken off with a bang and been the focus of such rapid development, attention and growth in the UK, but not much is happening elsewhere (in the world). Oh yes, there is much talk, and planning (especially in the US, Canada and Australia), but no ‘green light’. Does anyone have any idea why? It’s almost like stonewalling, while England flies…

    Please tell me that the Ordinariate was not a political decision!

  • Johncollier01

    Hello Father
    I have spoken with Father Hurd in Archdioc. of Washington. He assures me that it is progressing. You might call him.

  • Paul

    Firstly, it is good to have relyable figures from a sound source. It would be interesting to know how many groups are involved. If there are 30, then the average size is around 25, which is in line with expectations. If the figures are correct, then there are two clergymen per group and one clergyman per 12.5 lay people.

    With regard to slow progress elsewhere in the world, it seemed the same in England, untill all of a sudden, it developed very fast. It is characteristic of our Holy Father that he does not act until all the ground work has been done. Then he moves very quickly.

  • Newman

    It is important to remember that this is the ‘first wave’. There are many priests and people who are seriously attracted to the Ordinariate but are not yet ready to take the plunge.

  • Paul

    I’m one of them – the laity who have not yet taken the plunge. It’s easy to make excuses why I am not in this ‘first wave’, here’s a few: after 10 months of pretty much no activity, everything got going very quickly – too quickly for me to make a settled decision. We are in a part of the country where the clergy are all against it. We are in a parish that is trying to keep its head above the water and if we go they will struggle even more as we are all actively involved in church. There’s only say 5 or so of us who are interested, so it’s a small group. Personally, as a middle aged man having never been to Sacramental Confession, that prospect frightens me – part of the fruits of a life spent in the Anglican church. But I think we will get there. We are know where we belong really and just need time.

  • Fathercrosbie

    Father Andrew Crosbie

    There is no bang. There is barely a pop. Anglican laity will not be interested in an Ordinariate which is entirely modern Roman in its identity. We were promised groups of Anglicans coming into communion with the See of Peter bringing with them their rich Anglican Patrimony. There is no sign of any Anglican patrimony. A friend attended one of the two advertised Masses for the Ordinariate in Buckfast Abbey at 12 noon on Ash Wednesday. The Ordinariate was never mentioned during the Mass . He was one of two Anglicans in the congregation who turned up for this event. Sorry but the Ordinariate has all been dumbed down so much by silly secrecy and nonsense. Most Anglicans dont use Roman rite liturgies and they wont be attracted to a group that is entirely Roman and so far exclusively modern. 20 priests and an undisclosed number of laity in the first wave is a flop. It could have been so different. There was a famous drag queen in the 1950′s who had a hit song called ‘ you’ve got to open the show with a bang ‘ There is no bang.

  • http://www.catholicismpure.wordpress.com teresa

    We, Roman Catholics, are not interested in statistics, how many coming in etc. Every single person who comes back home will be welcomed with the warmest heart.

    Your cynical sneer just proves my impression that the appearance of Anglican “tolerance” is in great part hypocrisy.

  • Aging Papist

    What utter nonsense Teresa. Of course Roman Catholics are interested in statistics, and they have been far from being the most welcoming to our Anglo Catholic converts. Anglicans are by nature “tolerant”, but they aren’t stupid. They want to see the goods before they buy the product sight unseen. We have yet to see what the liturgy for the Ordinariate is going to look like and for many Anglicans they’ll make their move based on what is finally decided.

    Many Catholics still greet the the Ordinariate as a nest of heretics, or should I say Protestant camels with their noses under the Roman tent. CofE members bent on destroying the Latin, the TLM and or the Novus Ordo. Coming in with their personal agendas and Cranmerian liturgies. Rather than unqualifiedly accepting the authority of the pope.

    Only Catholic afficionados of Anglican spirituality and liturgy seem to be welcoming this Ordinariate.

  • Aging Papist

    What utter nonsense Teresa. Of course Roman Catholics are interested in statistics, and they have been far from being the most welcoming to our Anglo Catholic converts. Anglicans are by nature “tolerant”, but they aren’t stupid. They want to see the goods before they buy the product sight unseen. We have yet to see what the liturgy for the Ordinariate is going to look like and for many Anglicans they’ll make their move based on what is finally decided.

    Many Catholics still greet the the Ordinariate as a nest of heretics, or should I say Protestant camels with their noses under the Roman tent. CofE members bent on destroying the Latin, the TLM and or the Novus Ordo. Coming in with their personal agendas and Cranmerian liturgies. Rather than unqualifiedly accepting the authority of the pope.

    Only Catholic afficionados of Anglican spirituality and liturgy seem to be welcoming this Ordinariate.

  • vox angelica

    I am one of the non practicing Anglo-catholics, I had been a faithfull member and given all my early life to the church as Organist and Choirmaster I lost interest and faith as many did after the 1st wave of women priests and it has gone from bad to worse, with Traditionalists being marginalised and made unwelcome i want to make the move but it pains me to see the loss of heritage in terms of music and buildings and fittings not to mention everything else associated with the church I previously loved, I’m sure I will go …..as will other but not yet.

  • http://www.catholicismpure.wordpress.com teresa

    I feel sorry for you, Aging Papist, I am overjoyed by the Anglican Catholics’ coming home, but I never experienced Anglican liturgy, that I am people I know, all conservative Catholics, feel the same like me. You display so much frustration, so much hatred. Your comment is so unchristian in general that I am really appalled by it.

    The only nagging ones are you, liberal Catholics who seem to have an issue with the Church in general, and liberal Anglicans.

  • Daniel72

    Firstly Paul, don’t worry about making your first sacramental reconciliation (confession), the feeling you would experience more than makes up for those thoughts of being frightened, I know I was born Anglo catholic, but never really bought up in the faith. Do take your time and really think about it. I took four years of contemplation before making my decision to become Catholic, via the Rite of Christian Initiation in Adults. I will pray for you and any other Anglicans who embark on the same journey.

  • Anonymous

    As much as I truly wish to see a return of all Protestants to the One True Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, I have my reservations about this Anglican Ordinariate business.

    If these people have truly been given the grace to see the falsehood of Anglicanism, then why make the return to the True Faith conditional upon a preservation of Anglican patrimony. Anglicanism was born in immorality, heresy, disobedience and schism. This is its only patrimony, still visible today in the appointment of homosexual and women clergy, not to mention divorce (the sin of Henry VIII that first gave birth to Anglicanism).

    Is it possible, I wonder, that these Anglican converts of today are really just moving themselves into a more stable moral climate without truly wishing to renounce their heretical faith, which they seek to preserve now within Catholicism under the spurious title of “Anglican patrimony?”

    I’m sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but Cardinal John Henry Newman and many other eminent Anglican converts renounced everything of Anglicanism and embraced everything of Catholicism. They didn’t make their conversion dependent upon permission to have little Anglican enclaves called Ordinariates within the Catholic Church. Is this true conversion of heart, then, a moral thing rather than a faith thing? I wonder!

  • Aging Papist

    People I know, all conservative Catholics, feel the same like me
    ———————————————————————————————–
    Teresa, I have no fear there are others just like you. You comments are so preposterous it is difficult to take any of them seriously. You know nothing about Anglicans, liberal or otherwise, and I would say that your knowledge of liberal Catholics ranks right up there with the Anglicans. I am neither frustrated, nor do I hate anyone.

    You’re entitled to your opinions as I am. Take it or leave it..

  • http://www.catholicismpure.wordpress.com teresa

    Liberal Catholics, how could I not know them! I had a lot to do with them and suffered a lot under their tyranny.

    Whether I know Anglicans? Well, I do know conservative Anglicans who are very decent people, though I’ve never visited their liturgy.

    As for your hatred: I don’t know you but the writings of you does display great bitterness, also earlier comments of you.

  • Aging Papist

    Maryjo, I’ll agree with you on one thing you said. Why did it take the Anglo Catholics so long to embrace what most have believed about the Catholic Church for much of their careers as priests or laity in the CofE? The pope set himself up for this. Far too much secrecy and foot dragging to boot.The Anglicans know how to bargain to get what they want and they did. Hence, we have the Ordinariate in it’s early stages. If the Anglican Ordinariate’s liturgy is not the liking of most Anglicans, many won’t take the step.

    Just as the SSPX manipulated this pope to lift the excommunications of the five heretical bishops. Now they’ve said bye bye to Benedict. I suspect many Anglicans contemplating the move will also say goodbye and thanks. Deceit is part of the human condition. I think the pontiff was snookered by both groups.

    The pope is right about the Anglican patrimony. As was Pope Paul VI and John Paul II. All three of them have had a strong attachment to Anglican choral church music, liturgy, the emphasis upon beauty, envious of their magnificent churches, and Anglican history of insisting upon ritual being carried out with the utmost care and attention to detail. Pope Paul VI often played Anglican matins and evensong on his tape reocorder while working in his study. He considered the cultural legacy of Cranmer and the Divines well within the Catholic tradition. Despite Cranmer’s protestant additions to the eucharistic prayer and his equivocating language in the communion liturgy.

    The Anglican attention to liturgical detail, love of solemnity and liturgical choreography sadly lacking in most Roman churches is what the three popes want to preserve and to pass on to the rest of the Catholic Church. Liturgy in the Latin rite is a disaster which only gets worse and so the civil war continues.

    Anglicans have always celebrated our liturgies better than the Roman Church itself does with few exceptions. Unfortunately, world-wide corruption of the hierarchy in dealing with systemic child abuse and the growing view of the hierarchy’s irrelevance and powerlessness is now most evident to so many Catholics capable of thinking for themselves who haven’t been brow-beaten into submission by some priest, e.g. the Irish Church and much of the American church, such as Philadelphia, Boston, New York, and many other largely Catholic centers of the U.S.A.

    The scandal and the brazen arrogance of Rome and the bishops may be taking it’s toll on Anglicans considering the Ordinariate. They have excellent reasons, whether they’re heretics or not, for waiting until Rome and the Eastern Churches can get their acts together and reunite. They’ll also be watching to see how Benedict and the hierarchy come to grips with these scandals, and what it will ultimately mean to the functioning of the Catholic Church vis a vis Anglicans and other protestants. How ecclesial governance changes or doesn’t change because of these gross acts of mismangement.

    They’ll also be observing how quickly outraged Catholics start leaving in droves. The Church in the U.S. has suffered losses on a massive scale for years. It will be interesting to see if this exodus continues. Especially what well educated Catholics, yes liberal Catholics in many instances, but not in all cases, are prepared to do. Many of them are the most outspoken in their shock and their rejection of the Church.

  • Anonymous

    I suppose the answer to Rome’s woes is to return to sacred tradition, which means a scrapping of all those novelties since Vatican II that have made the Church more Pentecostal than Catholic. These changes are also responsible for most of the clerical abuse cases. Take away the spirituality and only carnality is left!!

    As for your declaration on the SSPX, I have to take serious issue with you on that. There was no intent whatever on the part of Bishop Fellay to deceive the Pope into lifting the excommunications because the SSPX Bishops never accepted their validity in the first place.

    Given the jiggery pokery that went on with the new Code of Canon Law to upgrade this previously non-punishable offence to excommunication, and given that Pope John Paul II’s declaration that the penalty had been automatically incurred was never ratified, as it should have been, by the Holy Roman Court, one can certainly see the SSPX point of view.

    At any rate, I know that Bishop Fellay was hopeful that talks with Rome might bring about a serious change of direction in respect to Conciliar reform, although he did say from the outset that a small miracle would be required. He is deeply sorry that matters have come to a close this early on, but who can blame him when the Pope announces the beatification of Pope John Paul II and yet another Assisi scandal in the near future. Those two announcements are what scuppered and hopes of Rome returning to tradition at this point, and that’s why the talks failed.

  • http://twitter.com/McHeir Paulina

    There is nothing worthy to know about liberal catholics when you notice the problem of Germany and its latest protest about women, homosexuals and celibacy. The part of German I mean.

  • Anonymous

    Daniel72 is definitely right about confession. There is quite literally a spiritual and mental lifting of all that baggage off your shoulders when you go to confession and you are absolved. Reconciliation is a great sacrament.

    I am a Catholic and in a recent conversation I have it on good authority from the head of the Rite of Christian Initiation in Adults (RCIA) Network that the program leaders will take into account the solid teaching from the Anglo-Catholic church and that the initiation should be relatively swift compared to other groups.

    I think that the ordinariate is a great thing, however, which ever route you take good luck!

  • Anonymous

    Pope Paul VI, John Paul II & Benedict all have had a strong attachment to Anglican choral church music, liturgy, the emphasis upon beauty. As a Catholic I understand that you have a great opportunity to keep all of these.

    Personally, I have little experience of the Anglican liturgy but,the solemnity and reverence of the choral church music is a truly great thing. I hope you come over to the ordinariate and fight to keep this great tradition in exactly the same way that Benedict wants you to. Good luck with it!

  • Aging Papist

    The Ordinariate may not draw many “low”, ‘broad/latitudinarian” or “high church” Anglicans just yet, but the great benefit of it will be the enriching of the Catholic Church’s own tradition now growing in an Anglophone environment. Hopefully, rubbing off on to the Novus Ordo and replacing 40 years of sloppy liturgical practices and disappointing church music. Something for which I blame the Vatican and the bishops. All three popes you mentioned MJCarroll fervently hoped for that.

    Unfortunately, too many Catholics have concluded the pope was giving away the store to protestants.
    This is nonsense fed largely by the SSPX heretics and the hyper traditionalists.

    Thomas Cranmer’s theology is not being endorsed by the pope or the Ordinariate, but his use of the English language and his skills as a liturgist and rubricist most definitley are respected and, I believe will come to alter the way the Novus Ordo and eventually the Tridentine Mass are celebrated. They’re seen seen as part of Cranmer’s Catholic heritage which he always retained in liturgy if not in his theology. All of this, despite his associations with Lutheran and Zwinglian theologians.

    The prayer pook editions throughout the 16the century reveal the preservation of that Catholic past. As did English religious compositions from the 16th century to the present. The anthems, hymns, and psalm settings are being used in Catholic churches in the U.S.today to an ever growing extent. Something for which we should all be grateful. Much to the chagrin and frustration of arch traditionalists and their SSPX allies trying to restore a one size fits all Latin Mass on the entire Church. Pope Benedict’s Ordinariate has truly thrown a cat amongst those Latin Mass-loving pigeons to be sure.

  • Aging Papist

    What is worthy to know Paulina is that almost 300 Catholic theologians in Germany have called for radical reforms in the Church. The pope’s old nemisis, Father Hans Kung, warned Benedict years ago about the direction the Church was going with prophetic accuracy. The pope should have listened to him, instead of the weak and self-serving reactionary cardinals he has around him now. Benedict has not been well served by them. Even though they’ve been bending over backwards to trumpet everything he says , but have worked to isolate Benedict from the world and from harsh realities.

  • Anne

    You must not be concerned about Sacramental Confession.Priests are not there to judge but to advise and help and to grant absolution.They are always always gentle.If you ‘bite the bullet’ and make a good confession, you will have a beautiful blessing from the Lord and will feel like skipping with joy!

  • Crofty

    Having read the article and the comments there are a few things worth pondering on.

    What did Anglicans or anyone else for that matter do if they wanted to follow a different path of belief? There was no Ordinariate indeed nothing except a warm welcome to one’s new spiritual home.

    Why was the Ordinariate not set up in the nineties when it may have had more effect?
    What is the actual purpose of the Ordinariate in England and Wales today? Is it really necessary? It may well be a necessary vehicle of support to Anglicans in other countries – I am thinking of Japan Australia etc.

    What was the real level of discussion and consultation between Rome and the leaders of the Catholic Church in England and Wales? I can tell you very little and the Bishops were told this is what was going to happen, please get on with implementing it!

    Statistics are interesting in the same way they are interesting to read how many people voted in an election, how many people in society do whatever. The parable of the lost sheep is required reading for statisticians!

    The question of sacrifice. Many men were harshly treated in the nineties when they resigned their ministries and were received into the Church. Their former superiors as well as their eventual new superiors all took different standpoints and actions and I think that many of them failed to appreciate the great pain some of these men endured. From a practical point of view many of these men were abandoning financial stability and security. Those with families had more to contend with and their families should be applauded for supporting the decision which was life changing in so many other ways. Now in 2011 I witness a fast tracking of the process of reception to the Catholic Church. Many of these men may well be worthy priests but why the rush? Where is the period of discernment of journeying that everyone else has had to follow in the past and that others are still expected to follow? Are all those Anglican priests converting, suitable to be priests of the Roman Catholic Church? (I am not so sure and know that even in Anglican circles some who are leaving will not be missed!)
    It is these questions and similar questions not written here, that cause anguish and for the ordinary Catholic who perhaps does not read any Catholic publication save that of the parish newsletter and a secular paper.

    A better communication strategy was and is still needed. Rome should have considered the Ordinariate in a cultural context. The local church should have had greater say in the preparation of such a bold move. If the English and Welsh Bishops felt the consultation was not sufficient, then like their Japanese counterparts who have concerns about the Neo Catechumenate and Rome’s intervention in the matter, should have held out and cried foul! Let’s talk more before enacting anything.

    Many former Anglicans who were received into the Roman Catholic Church in the last twenty years feel hurt and betrayed by the church they left and indeed the Church they joined. They need our support as much as those journeying now.

    This year offers the Roman Catholic Community the chance to put aside idealogical differences and support each other in the richness of our faith. We have a great opportunity to learn together with the introduction of the Revised Missal in English. (This is not the place to comment on the issues raised by that). There is a chance to learn from the experience of each other’s background and move forward – together in unity and love

  • Eric Conway

    Radical reforms in the Church. Sounds like something from the communist manifesto ; & we know where that led. Lets guess at Kungs radical reform list – married clergy ; homosexual clergy ( we know the damage they have caused over the last 40/50 years ! ) ; wimmin priests . It’s a tired old hippies wish list. The liberal protestant church’s tried this with disastrous results. Why should the Pope yield to liberal/feminist German malcontents. Germany, like large parts of Europe is an intellectual & demographic basket-case. Doomed to decline. The Church continues to grow rapidly in Africa & Asia, with largely orthodox Bishops. That’s where the future lies, & Pope Benedict knows it. God bless the Pope.

  • weary convert

    Conway’s sneer at “wimmin” priests is I am sure intended and not just an inefficient spellchecker – how unpleasant. As to his comment on the activitites of “homosexual” clergy in the last 40/50 years, it is presumably his attempt to wriggle out of the widespread abuse of children by priests, religious and, of course NUNS – for example the Irish “schools” that were little more than concentration camps, doubletless operated by Nuns of unimpeachable orthodoxy. Were all those vile Nuns homosexual or simply religious sadists? Really, is it reasonable to believe that a God who created a universe around 13.7 billion years old and likely to last for billions if not trillions of years, cares a row of buttons (the excellent expletiive of Fotherington-Thomas) about all the screaming abuse of the impossibly foolish fundamentalists?Oh dear, as I have suggested before, is it not about time all these silly fanatics grew up?

  • Bonydiver

    As a former Anglican prospective member of the the Ordinariate, I, or any of those I know, would not accept any notion of our former Christian heritage to be ‘heretical in faith’[.

    There is and has been division and antagonisms on both sides but if one is look back along history, the faith and love for Jesus expressed through Anglicanism must stand as testament to God’s great workings and headings in our Anglican Christian community stretching beyond our own shores in times of past where only, with the power of God behind us, we stood almost alone against enemies of his and not just simply in protection of the dominions and realms of our monarchs. Indeed, the world has much to thank God for his mystical manoeuvrings within the Anglican heritage and that must include the blessed RC Church!

    We, or at least I, do not leave with any sense of departing a principally flawed faith but heed a calling of Jesus, above that of any Institution, Country or Queen, as a warning to others that within the CofE, the same enemy of God that once reared amongst the nations of Europe, has taken a foothold within. A situation the RC Church experiences across Europe and not just in Anglican community.

    In short, I along with many others step outside to fight the enemy that has all but destroyed the groundwork of those Anglicans who, since inception, sought to bring to life over above petty divisions that stand in the way of the ‘one church’ that Christ prayed for.

  • Anonymous

    Bonydiver

    The C of E religion, from its revolutionary roots in the XVI century to the present day, stands anathematised by the authority of the true Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy See, through which God speaks infallibly in such matters, declared the founders of Anglicanism to be heretical (rejection of Papal authority) and excommunicated. In effect, cut off from the “true vine.” This declaration stands today.

    Rome has also declared Anglican orders to be null and void, the sect not having preserved the apostolic succession. Hence, the Archbishop of Canterbury, as is the case with all others who claim Anglican orders, is really just a layman with no sacerdotal character on his soul before God.

    In terms of the broader “Anglican Communion,” there are a good many doctrinal issues that would fall under the Catholic term ‘heresy.’ However, it is primarily in its departure from the moral teaching of the Catholic Church that the true nature of Anglicanism is revealed, both historically and presently.

    There is, therefore, every reason why Anglicans of upright conscience would wish to hurry home to Rome, but let it not be under the illusion that, immorality aside, Anglicanism is the bestower of a faith “patrimony.” The patrimony of Anglicans today is rightly that which their forefathers had before the Reformation, namely that of all those who have held the Roman Catholic religion from St. Peter to the present day.

    John Henry Newman and other former Anglicans accepted this. They didn’t ask to bring an imagined “patrimony” back home with them. They accepted the Catholic Faith in its entirety and renounced all adherence to their former error. There wasn’t a mention of Anglican “patrimony” then.

  • Eric Conway

    Puerile fundamentalist bigorty, from a sychophantic homophile. Irish schools were excellent, I’m the product of them myself, as you can tell from my intellectual superiority. That’s why in the US, Uk & elsewhere where bigots like you have their way & faith schools are made more difficult to access, the resultant secular schools are invariably totally inferior, & conscientious parents cry out for Catholic schools for their children. I am absolutely proud of the Irish Catholic Nuns who taught me & nursed my father on his deathbed. Many of them are now involed in nursing aids itims in San Francisco & Afria – the heroic Sr. Miriam Duggan particularly comes to mind. I wont allow a bigot like you to discredit those wonderful women. Proud to be Irish & Catholic. Go & crawl back under the rock from whence you emerged !.

  • Weary convert

    Presumably Conway’s response is intended to claim that there was no abuse of children by Irish nuns in Ireland (I have no idea what they may get up to in Africa). This is a view that I would have thought even the wilder representatives of mindless fundamentalism would find hard to maintain. However, I trust that Conway is happy in having publicised his inability to conduct a debate without using insults which I can only assume that he learned from the nuns who taught him. Never mind, it is always interesting to encounter people one thought only existed in fiction. Now to bed and closure of this little discussion although I imagine that Conway may be itching to have “the last word:” this is certainly the last from me.

  • Aging Papist

    The Holy See, through which God speaks infallibly in such matters, declared the founders of Anglicanism to be heretical (rejection of Papal authority) and excommunicated. In effect, cut off from the “true vine.” This declaration stands today.
    —————————————————————————————————————————————————-
    Martyjo, God speaks through the once undivided Christendom and not exclusively through the bishop of Rome. Anglicans and Orthodox realize this. The Holy See is largely a developing institution with absurd claims starting with Leo the Great in response to historical exigencies unique to the west. This interpretation of the “Roman primacy” emanating from Christ’ promise to Peter is a fraudulent twist of events and facts. It has no foundation in scripture, early Church tradition in the west, and definitely nowhere, whatsoever, in the eastern half of Christendom.

    There were churches which never communicated with Rome, never knew who the bishop was, and for them their own bishop was the sole center of unity and orthodoxy. They also saw themselves in communion with their patriarch. Far from the See of Rome. The concept of universal unity under a “Universal Pastor” is an Italian bureaucratic notion. He is no more the Vicar of Christ than I am.

    Fr. Yves Congar, OP destroyed the myth of the pope as “Vicar of CHRIST” years before the Vatican Council. Just as the Donation of Constantine, another myth, was exposed in the 16th century.

    The SSPX doesn’t accept it either, but it wants to be acknowleged as part of the Roman Church. Are these people insane or what? LOL LOL This laughable and ridiculous act of self-aggrandizement and power grab by the See of Rome has never figured in eastern ecclesiology..The east views Rome as heretical and schismatic today. Just as Rome judges Anglicanism. The Roman fiction of papal primacy derived from the Petrine commission given in Matthew’s gospel fails to withstand critical historical analysis.

    The Rome’s effort to control the minds of western Catholics with their singular and exalted status is coming apart today very rapidly in the light of continuing scandals and continuing historical scholarship. Both of which the Church turns a blind eye and refuses to acknowledge.

    Benedict’s Church is suddenly having to traverse five centuries in just a few decades to come crashing into the 21st century. He and his hierarchy haven’t the weapons or the imagination to deal with the crisis before them. The east and other Protestant groups, especially Anglicans and Lutherans, understand this all too well and will react to it accordingly.

    I don’t see very many Anglicans , outside the Anglo-Catholic wing, accepting the Ordinariate , or even seriously considering it until Rome has sealed reunion with the east. Discussion with the Orthodox are Kabuki Theater pure and simple. A serious effort is really being being placed on the back burner by Benedict and the incompetent clowns around him. To again please the SSPX and Sedevacantist heretics.

    Reunion will not be in our lifetime. In fact, it could be centuries before it happens. If at all..

  • Aging Papist

    Martyjo, You say with regard to the excommunications, ” because the SSPX Bishops never accepted their validity in the first place”. Precisely the point I’ve been making. They never accepted the authority of the Roman Church or the Vatican Council, it’s teachings and it’s disciplinary canons. Why would anyone expect them to accept the validity of the excommunications? They are a pack of anti-Semitic, antedeluvian crackpots, and Benedict must be having second thoughts about lifting those excommunications. In due course, he will be declaring anathema not those who embraced Vatican II and who have remained faithful to the liturgical changes imposed upon them over 41 years, but those who have allied themselves with these demented heretics and schismatics.

  • Aging Papist

    Anne, “skipping with joy”. If that’s what it does for you, good and may you have even more joy as you continue to sin. I always said private confession is a psychological release. It releases us from our guilt trip so that we can go and sin some more. What blessed relief.

  • Eric Conway

    Weary by name & weary by nature. Like all bigoted bullies your good at dishing it out but supersensitive when stood up to. Well you’ve met your match here pal. I’ve come across your type before, the classic school bully, good at dishing it out, but cant take it when his bullying is confronted. Try thinking for yourself for a change, & not just mindlessly regurgitating the anti-Catholic bigotry you’ve picked up along the way. To repeat, I’m absolutely proud of the wonderful Nuns I have met in the course of my life. It makes me proud to be Irish & Catholic. I still support their work, particularly in the third world. I have no doubt some of these wonderful women will be maliciously accused in the future by bigots like you of some kind of abuse – it invariably happens when you try to help people. But their reward is their wonderful work. I’m sure your self-imposed silence will be a blessing to us all. Mind how you go !.

  • Anonymous

    So much for Sola Scriptura Protestantism!

    Our Lord makes it perfectly clear in the Gospels who and what Peter is:

    “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.”

    Again, “Who hears you, hears me.”

    And again, “Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven. Whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.”

    And again, “Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven. Whose sins you shall retain they are retained.”

    And again, “Feed my sheep – Feed my lambs”.

    Only the blindest of people would argue that these references of Our Lord applied merely to the lifespan of St. Peter and were not intended to institute the Holy See built upon Peter and his successors.

    Suffice it to say that the Protestant argument really doesn’t hold water. How anyone could weigh the Protestant renouncing of Papal authority against Our Lord’s clear institution of it, especially while claiming a recognition of Scriptural authority, beggars belief. It is the epitomy of pride.

    Non Serviam, said Lucifer. That’s precisely what Protestants said, and continue to say to the legitimate authority of the Church instituted by Our Lord, outside of which there is no salvation.

    Why do you think there are at least 265 different Protestant Sects, all preaching their own interpretation of Scripture? Do you really believe that God instituted such disorder? Come on, that’s the fragmentation that occurs amongst those possessed by the spirit of disunity!

    If there is a crisis in the Catholic Church post-Vatican II, it is precisely because many in the hierarchy and clergy have gone down the same road as the XVI century Revolutionaries. They have tried to bring the Reformation alive again in the Church and we see the carnage it has caused.

    Yves Congar OP was one such revolutionary. Do you seriously expect Catholics to take the arguments of that man seriously? Don’t forget that Luther, Knox, Cranmer and a host of other apostate clerics were echoing Lucifer’s clarion call long before he came on the scene.

    Protestantism was, and is, a mere 450-year-old manifestation of rebellion against God. It was dying on its feet until Vatican II breathed new life into it. It will, however, eventually succumb to the sickness which is inherrent to it, for it has not the life of the true vine to keep it alive. That much is certain and can be seen already in the complete moral collapse of Anglicanism. It was a house built on sand, not on a rock!

  • Anonymous

    Perhaps you should try writing again once you have calmed yourself and regained your objectivity.

  • Mary Lau

    I was converted and received into the Catholic Church 4 years ago after 2 years of studying the teachings of the Catholic Church. It was the best decision I have ever made. I used to belong to and was very much part of a very friendly Church of England Church but somehow felt there was something missing. I couldn’t understand why as I was happy and among good friends and a kind Vicar. I started looking into other protestant denominations including the Quakers and Salvation Army, but never the Roman Catholic Church. That is how prejudice I was against the Catholic Church. Now I realised my prejudice was due to ignorance and protestant indoctrinations. I am no longer restless for I have found what was missing. It was the Presence of Christ. I am soooo full of joy and peace now thanks to the teachings of the Catholic Church and all the wonderful Sacraments that our Lord has given to the Chuch especially the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist and the Sacrament of Reconciliation and last but not least Our Blessed Mother. So many cradle Catholics don’t appreciate what they have and Protestants don’t know what they are missing. So please, don’t delay any longer! Come home. Jesus did not come to condemn but to heal and he has appointed Peter and the Apostles to conitinue His Mission. I think the Catholic Church is the best hospital on earth for healing. God bless.

  • Syble

    Be careful teresa. You might get the worst of our lot….if I were you I’d be questioning the characters of the gent priests who are coming your way in their “coming home”. Which of course they could have done long ago (if only they could get over their fondness for pressed cotton and linen vestments and decent music).

  • Siblineone

    Dear Eric – are you for real? Your intellectual superiority may match your levels of self-adoration.

  • Syble

    Eric – are you a Christian?

  • Syble

    I am not a Roman Catholic. I appreciate deeply what I have in an inclusive anglo catholic community. I have no need to be RC and I certainly won’t be RC because I don’t approve of the rules on women and homosexuals (“intrinsically flawed” according to the pontif). I am neither gay or hippy. I sing Palestrina on a sunday and worship God.
    Patronising comments about those like me not “knowing what we are missing” are not helpful. Good luck to you in your RC faith. I’m delighted with mine. My faith recognises yours in a way yours does not recognise mine. Food for thought. But there you go.

  • Eric Conway

    Who rattled your cage ?. Until you have something coherent/intelligent to contribute ( which is highly doubtful ) save your puerile comments for your liberal fundamentalist friends. Liberalism Catholicism, like it’s first cousin, atheism, is ok for pimpled adolescents. Leave the intelligent stuff to the grown up’s, like me & Joseph Ratzinger. Presume you’ve heard of him !. God bless the Pope.

  • Eric Conway

    Of the very highest kind. I prefer the term Roman Catholic to Christian. All sorts of air-head liberals attach the latter description to themselves. It usually means they are more in thrall to liberal/feminist fundamentalism than real Christianity. By the way, what are you ?. As if I’m interested !.

  • Semper Fidelis

    Excellent post, Eric.

  • Syble

    Dear Angry Eric

    Do I have liberal fundamentalist friends? How would you know? You have now confirmed (publicly too which is actually quite funny!) my thoughts: you do indeed have a rare conceit of yourself. It takes a rare and high level of self-regard to compare oneself to a serious academic like Ratzinger. God bless him indeed.

  • Syble

    I’m a Christian Eric…seeing as you are keen enough to ask. That means, for me at least, not insulting others whose views might differ from mine. “Air head”, “pimpled” and so on are not helpful in that.

    On your point about RC or Christian, fair enough, if that’s how you see it. You, and you alone, must be right and have the answer. For me, however, Jesus was not called “Jesus Roman Catholic” but Jesus Christ. Hence “Christian” a follower of Christ. Perhaps you had missed that in your deep study of theological matters. As for fundamentalist. Well, if the cap fits………..

  • Eric Conway

    I did suggest that you should keep schtum unless you had something intelligible to contribute. But you would’nt listen !. If you cant stand the heat. You win the first prize for the most pompous post in the Catholic Herald. Good of you to publicly reveal your pomposity. By the way, it’s Joseph Ratzinger. God bless the Pope.

  • Eric Conway

    For God’s sake chill out. It’s ok for bullies to attack, but one isn’t allowed to fight back ?. I attack these bigots not for my own egotistical reasons, but primarily to defend the wonderful Priests & Nuns they attempt to besmirch. Thankfully my parents brought me up not alone to love my neighbour, but also to defend others against bullies. Irish, Catholic & proud of it. As for your cheap/vulgar sneer at my Catholicism, it’s more revealing about your interpretation of Christianity than anything. Nevertheless, I’ll pray for you. God bless.

  • Syble

    Dearest Eric

    You copy cat you with your post! And thanks for making me laugh again! It’s a great imitation you do of a really, really angry and pompous person. Remember Mr Angry on Radio 1? Hilarious! You really had me fooled! I thought you were for real!

  • Syble

    Dearest Eric

    bully? take good look at yourself and your posts. I’ll pray for you too. Get some help. I’m not sneering at your catholicism but at your attitude to others not of your view.