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Vatican: girls are not permitted to serve at old Mass

By on Wednesday, 8 June 2011

Altar servers kneel during Mass in the Extraordinary Form at the Basilica of St John Lateran in Rome (CNS photo)

Altar servers kneel during Mass in the Extraordinary Form at the Basilica of St John Lateran in Rome (CNS photo)

The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei has clarified that girls are not allowed to serve at the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

It made clear that the Instruction on Summorum Pontificum, Universae Ecclesiae, does not permit female altar servers at the older Mass.

Universae Ecclesiae states “the Moto Proprio Summorum Pontificum derogates from those provisions of law, connected with the Sacred Rites, promulgated from 1962 onwards and incompatible with the rubrics of the liturgical books in effect in 1962″. Permission for female altar servers came with the Circular Letter of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments of 1994. However, the rubrics of the 1962 Missal did not allow for females on the sanctuary during Mass.

The letter, signed by Mgr Guido Pozzo, Secretary of Ecclesia Dei, said that “permitting female altar servers does not apply to the Extraordinary Form”.

Fr Alban McCoy, university chaplain at Cambridge, has celebrated the Extraordinary Form with female altar servers. He said he did not seek to include women in his team of servers but “decided not to refuse the request of two young women to serve in the old form”.

His team includes six boys and four girls. “We have one team of servers for all Masses – Ordinary and Extraordinary; one rite of liturgy, one set of servers.”

A spokesman for the Latin Mass Society said the clarification was “significant” and that all bishops should practice in accordance with what has been stated in the letter.

  • http://blueberriesforme.wordpress.com/ Jackie

    Maybe because they realized that men and women are equal? That there is no real reason to keep women off the altar? Because the Church has never claimed to be infallible in practice, only in faith and morals. 

    The question isn’t what is most historically accurate, but what is truly God’s will. Which neither of us can claim to know. 

    As far as gender equality goes – Frank is right. Galations 3:28: There is neither woman nor man. The Bible does not establish separate gender roles, it instead insists that we are all viewed equally. This isn’t moving into secular ideals about gender equality, it’s moving away from secular ideas about gender inequality that were common in the history and context where the Church was founded. You are right – the Church isn’t the same as secular society. Secular society says men and women are not equal. The Church teaches otherwise. Inviting women to serve in the ordinary form was moving away from past injustices not towards secular ideas. Gender equality is NOT secular. It is established by God, in his scripture. 

    May I also recommend: Romans 16:1 (a woman deacon!) Philippians 4:1-3 (women doing the SAME work as Paul!), Acts 18:26 (a woman teaching!), Acts 21:9 (women prophesying!), Roman 16:7 (a woman apostle!), Acts 12:12 (a woman whose home was a ‘house church” though perhaps they roped off an area in her own home that she wasn’t allowed to stand on during the service).

    If you choose to quote back 1 Cor 14 34-35, please note that a) Biblical Scholars believe it was a later addition not written by paul, b) altar servers don’t speak, and c) if it is true, every time you or I said the Creed we’d be sinning. 

  • Eagleshadow49

     Amen. Amen and thank you. For those who argue that VCII allows altar girls, that is a misconception at least and an outright lie at worst. For those who are familiar with the popular two-volume translation of the Documents of Vatican II, it clearly states (page 98) that females SHALL NOT serve on the altar. How that was “interpreted” to allow it in 1994 I don’t know. Still can’t find anyone who can explain that one. If Our Lord had intended women for these roles He would have said so at the time. Being the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (and therefore God) it is not possible that He made a mistake. 

  • Radactrice

    “The Last Supper only included men by the design of Our Lord.  The Mass,
    as a re-presentation of the Last Supper, follows the example of Our Lord
    in only allowing males to function as ministers.”  ABSOLUTELY.  But it’s also true, as I said before, that Jesus NEVER permitted ANY woman to receive Holy Communion.  In fact, NO WOMEN were even in attendance at the First Mass.  We should be following Our Lord’s example in all things…and that means not just keeping women off the altar, but forbidding them to receive Holy Communion.  If He had wanted women to receive the Eucharist, He would have given it to His Mother.  He didn’t.  End of story.

  • Eagleshadow49

    Just a slight point of history here. Scripture tells us that Jesus was a Gallilean (sp). Also that He was of the line of David. In other words, of the Semitic race. Contrary to the popular conception, Jesus Christ was not white, Anglo-Saxon. If you have been to the Holy Land (or even seen pictures on TV), it is plain that the people of Israel (the native born) are, in fact, non-white.  

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2KTW5APE2X5KOOLDEV4PARRX6U Joseph

    Ecclesia Dei will be very, very, busy!!! The same people who perverted the Novus Ordo will be hitting the Tridentine Rite hard and heavy to pervert it.

  • TradMomof6

    So glad that there is finally a firm statement on this issue!!  :)  Wonderful news!  So many beautiful ways for girls to serve the church.  This should never have been one of them.  Glad that it will not become a norm in the Extrordinary Form Masses now. 

  • TradMomof6

    So glad someone mentioned this!  It was supposed to be the exception NOT the rule!  We just moved.  Our old parish had ONLY boy servers.  There were so many boys that my son only was on the schedule once a month.  They took it as their duty.  They were required to arrive early and always check if there were enough servers and if they were needed.  They did this with great hope that they would “suit up” and serve!  ONe of the parishes near to our old parish had the same rule, but all boys who were trained and showed up early were told to “suit up”  I remember one Sunday evening Mass with literally 23 servers!  So beautiful!  So reverent with the priest coming behind them! 
    We’ve moved now and there are NO parishes near us that are solely male servers.  My son will not serve, and I am not going to force him.  They don’t even use patens!!!!  Being a server meant something to my son.  The boys took their job VERY seriously.  Becoming a knight was one of the greatest honor for the boys at our old parish.  My son was about to become one before we moved.  They don’t even know what knights are here.  :( 

  • Archangels7

    You are so wrong it is almost comical – I say almost.  Your two sons are most likely the only 2 boys I have ever met who would not have any problem serving Holy Mass along side of girls.  The shortage of men is not due to the fact that women have been excluded but rather that the ways of the world have tempted and won over many voacations that would never come to be.  Women are certainly most important as are men but the role of the priest which was initiated by Jesus Christ himself – a man by the way – called for men as his apostles to follow in his footsteps and become priests.  His own Mother who is queen of Heaven is more blessed than all the men and women ever created all put together.  Who other than Mary would be more worthy to be a priest and yet she knew it was not the will of her son Jesus Christ and that the priesthood was reserved for men.  Try praying on the matter and asking Jesus Christ through the intercession of his Most Holy Mother Mary for the grace to know the truth once and for all.  Be obedient to the church or join Judas,  I hope you choose not to by the way.  I wil pray the Holy Spirit brings you enlightenment.  Yours in JMJ,
    Ted

  • Archangels7

    Ted again simply to clarify a couple of points – Altar boys are a path towards the priesthood as it is a known fact many former altar boys later developed vocations and became priests.  Altar girls are silly as God will never call any woman to ever become a priest and the church and successive Popes have made that abundanlty clear.  It is not because they are not as worthy as men – frankly any good priest and any honest person woud admit to knowing more devout women in their lives than men.  But the simple fact is that Jesus Christ does not want women to be priests so why have girls then take on the role of altar servers and then become bitter later on that they cannot continue on to towards the priesthood.  Yours in JMJ,
    Ted

  • AgingPapist

       Who other than Mary would be more worthy to be a priest and yet she
    knew it was not the will of her son Jesus Christ and that the priesthood
    was reserved for men.
    ————————————————————————————————————————————————–
    This is just more popish superstition. The Virgin Mary never expressed any such view and you have no evidence she did.  The “girls” in their lace dresses celebrating this museum piece of a Mass are resentful of perfectly normal little girls wanting to act as acolytes.  For fear eventually they’ll demand admission to the sanctuary. To which they are most definitley entitled.

    Neither Jesus nor Mary ever said they couldn’t be ordained or serve at Mass.  Please cease being  a mindless automaton with your unquestioning obedience to hopeless reactionaries and sexually repressed perverts and other women-haters in the Vatican.

  • Lefty048

    i defer and understand.  here in america every statue he is white many if not all with blue eyes etc…

  • Lefty048

    boy you opened up a can of worms.  can’t wait to see all the responses.

  • AgingPapist

    Phil, Instead of your stupid polemics, you should be offering a few intelligent and constructive points of your own. If you’re capable of doing so.   Simply bashing the most widely read Catholic publications in the USA and demonstrating your abysmal ignorance of protestantism,as well as Catholicism,  isn’t particularly encouraging. Any hope for an intelligent comment or fact from you appears so far to be in vain.

  • AgingPapist

    I received a very wrong education in RCIA by a woman who wants women
    priests, everything to be done by women (forget just having girls serve
    at altar), same sex unions, etc
    ————————————————————————————————————————————–
    Nice try Lucy. You werent’ taught anything of the kind by any knowledgeable and experienced RCIA instructor. A 2 year old baby expressed  the desire not to go back to the Ordinary form of the Mass? LOL LOL

    Who put you up to this performance?  Your friendly local SSPX?  LOL LOL

  • YoungAussieTrad

    True participation at Mass is primarily interior – uniting oneself heart and soul to the Holy Sacrifice.

    It is an unfortunate error of post-Vatican II “liturgists” to assume that unless one is carrying things about, or dancing a jig, or singing a simplistic, childish little ditty one is somehow “a bit excluded” from the Mass or not actively participating.

    It is truly mysoginistic to suggest that, unless women do what men do in the Church, they are somehow less than men; similarly only the most arrogant clericalists seem to think that all laity need to do what is properly the provinve of the priesthood in order to be “of value”.

    AMB is clearly unfamiliar with communities that celebrate the Extraordinary Form; they are generally comprised of devout young families, faithful to the teaching and praxis of the Church. In my experience, it is the Novus Ordo which has the decrepit 70s-era congregations of rebellious and barren feminists…

    There are no lay ‘extraordinary ministers’ at EF Masses. Every communicant receives kneeling and on the tongue from the hands of a priest. In 99% of cases, there’s no need for extraordinary ministers in Novus Ordo Masses, either; it’s just a way of accomodating busybodies who feel that they are a “bit excluded” unless they are dancing the Charleston up the aisle.  

  • Wally

    Still, the tone of mutual excommunication is disturbing to me as well.  I have been thinking and praying a lot with the Mass readings lately about working to stay one, one as Jesus and the Father are one. There have always been arguments, sure, but there is a lot of bitterness and viciousness here that I don’t think has any place in a truly Christian discussion. Passion, great. Hate? No, thank you. Take here the example of the Council of Jerusalem. Thanks be to God that Peter and Paul didn’t mutually excommunicate one another then and there. We cannot afford to do that today, either. Neither the EF or OF is a direct dictation of the Holy Spirit onto paper, and neither was Vatican II. We have to live these things out in love and community the same way the first Christians had to before even the Scriptures were written down…before the Church was using even Latin.  I love both forms of my Latin Rite, and both of them give me the gift of Jesus in the Eucharist and the honor of being joined in communion with my bothers and sisters in Christ. Let’s keep that in mind before we make our arguments. Not to stop thinking and working, but to do so in charity. Charity and humility ought to be our first and last words any time we write or speak to anyone.

  • Steve

    Ok read this right from the Bible: 1 COR 14:34-35
                                                    1 COR 11:5-10
                                                    1 TIM 2:9-15
    God’s ways and Man’s ways are not the same.  The argumnets are now over. 

  • Radactrice

    @TradMomof6, why should girls serve in the church at all?  As I said before, Jesus never gave Holy Communion to a single women and no women were at the First Eucharist.  So why should women be receiving Holy Communion now?  Clearly, the Eucharist was ONLY for men. Women shouldn’t even be IN the church, although Paul allowed them to enter, but they should never be receiving Holy Communion.

  • Dorothy

    Speaking as a lifelong Catholic and an M.Div, really whacky experiences in RCIA come as no surprise to me. Urban Catholics involved in Church doings that extend beyond their parishes are constantly trading stories about the weird things they heard at RCIA, marriage prep, etc. And that’s not even the stuff that gets posted on Youtube and linked to by dozens of Catholic blogs.

    Incidentally, I’ve always wondered why we hold ecumenism in such high esteem and yet the SSPX is treated as though it were the Anti-Christ. I don’t find anything LOL LOL about the SPPX. They’re my brothers and sisters, and my parish prays for them and hopes for a total reconciliation.

  • Dorothy

    …although his use of the words “popish superstition” rather ruin the disguise.

  • Dorothy

    I feel a reluctance to feed the trolls. But I also feel it necessary to tell the latter day Sola Scriptura set that as far as we know women have never been excluded en masse from Communion. When St. Augustine of Canterbury was troubled by the fact that the Anglo-Saxon women to whom he ministered refused to receive when they were menstruating. He sent St. Gregory the Great a dubium of his own. St. Gregory praised the high regard the humble but taboo-bound women had for the Eucharist, and ruled that they may certainly receive Communion while menstruating. 

    Too many Catholics do not know the traditions of our Church and, like many Protestants, ferret into the Bible for proof-texts without considering the Tradition around it, beside it and which–guided by the Holy Spirit–produced it.

  • Bmarrs

    The altar boys were in the first stages of possibly becoming a priest.  It was where they learned Latin and the ceremony of how to say mass.
    Christ is male and when the consecration occurs it must be a male body that the essence of Christ steps into a male.  There is a specific word for this but I have forgotten it.

  • Bmarrs

    My family recently started attending a parish closer to home.  My shock on Palm Sunday when several over 50 women wearing like outfits danced down the main isle waving palms was —— well speechless.  Probably a good thing at the moment.  This was my first with such conduct.
    Regardless of which style of mass there is all the talking before, during and after mass.  I have seen taking on cell phones, texting, adults eating and drinking during mass.
    There seems to be nothing inappropriate any more.

  • John D. Horton

    “b) altar servers don’t speak,”: 
     
    You are clearly as ignorant as a stone when it comes to what “altar boys” in the EF are supposed to do.  The first and most important duty of altar boys is to make the responses (you know, non-Latinists:  Priest: The Lord be with you, Server: And with thy Spirit, etc.) at Mass, in Latin, in a comprehensible fashion which does take some time and study and master.
     
    Also, at both the EF and OF the altar boys are suppose to be a model of what the congregation is suppose to be doing including participating in the Mass by singing and knowing when to stand, sit or kneel.
     
    Especially at wedding and funeral Masses (where most of the congregation are non-Catholic), the congregation can look to the altar boys as a guide as to when the congregation should sit, stand or kneel.
     
    In your world, Jackie, the altar girl is a glorified Hollywood model on a transvestite catwalk and head trip.  “Look at me.”  “I am a girl wearing men’s clothes.”  “I don’t have to participate at the Mass.”  “I don’t have to sing or make the responses.”  “I just have to stand around here, look bored, stare blindly into outer space and smack my bubble gum knowing that all eyes are on me, me, me.”
     
    If any boy or man showed up at a women’s event dressed up in women’s clothes, he would be shipped off to the nearest mental hospital.  But, unfortunately, a girl/woman, dressing up as a man and parading around in front of a stunned congregation is not a problem in the Catholic Church.  This is part of the weirdness (i.e. mental illness and criminality) of the Catholic hierarchy and clergy of the OF in allowing this weirdness.  In other words, it should be no surprise that there is a sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church when the Catholic hierarchy and clergy allow female transvestites to parading around at Mass and don’t think it is a problem.  Bishops and priests who allow transvestite altar servers could care less about the Mass because they are too business porning it up on the Internet or worse.     
     
    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • Ratbag

    Tch! Baptism cleanses us from Original Sin and gives us Sanctifying Grace.

    Our Blessed Lady was preserved from inheriting Original Sin by God through her Immaculate Conception in order that her womb would be a pure, spotless dwelling for Jesus Christ Our Lord to be made incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Is this news to you?

  • Guest

    I returned to the Church after a chance attendance at the Tridentine Mass. My husband and I attend a vibrant modern parish that is good for our young son, but our spirituality resides in the EF. I must also regretfully say, the female altar servers at our church look sloppy.

  • JRB

    IT’S TIME FOR ALL THESE ARROGANT WOMEN TO GET OFF THE ALTAR, WHERE I LIVE ALL THE BOYS HAVE BEEN DRIVEN AWAY BY THE WOMEN WHO RUN THE ALTER SERVERS THERE ARE NO MORE ALTAR BOYS HERE. THE IDEA OF ALTAR BOYS WAS TO INSPIRE THEM TO BE PRIESTS. NOW IT’S ONLY GIRLS  AND THE OLD WOMEN WHO RULE THE ALTAR. THE BOYS ARE DRIVEN AWAY. I AWAIT THE DAY THAT THE POPE DRIVES ALL THE OLD HARPIES OFF THE ALTAR, THEY ALL HAVE SHE-GOD COMPLEXES. THEY HAVE PRIEST FANTASIES AND SECRETLY WISH TO HEAR CONFESSIONS. THEY ALL NEED TO SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP.

  • guest

    In the Extrordinary Form the Priest wears a lace frock, it followed by other men wearing lace, that is women’s wear… I belong to a parish that has both boy and girl alter servers, both are very hard working, they are dedicated especially though the Easter Vigil. The idea that boys that serve the alter are going to be inspired to be priests in this day and age is highly unlikely, it is well known that many boys that found their way to the priesthood were pushed into it and no real vocation.

  • guest

    Nobody has yet explain what this role for women is that acceptable..Advocates of the Extraordinary Mass don’t want women to be Eurchuristic Ministers, seem to object to them being musicians because that is too much of Vatican having music groups.. are women allowed to do readings during Mass or is that too considered a man’s job?  All I can see left for women is marriage, bad sex and preputual pregnancy. And just maybe they will be allowed to arrange flowers and iron the alter linen.  It seems to me that the Extraordinary Mass is great for those that don’t like Catholics to have opinions or independent thought.
    It may have some beauty much like a opera or a play, nothing to do but watch. I am happy to be called Uncatholic by people on these threads.

  • Lefty048

    dear john the adults in the transvestite dresses at the mass are the priests.

  • Lefty048

    you forgot the women also have to cook, clean and wash the priests clothes.  here is a question gang. ask your parish priests in what decade they last changed a diaper?  just curious

  • YoungAussieTrad

    Before the introduction of the Novus Ordo, Cardinal Heenan predicted “At home it is not only women and children but also fathers of families and young men who come regularly to Mass. If we were to offer the kind of ceremony we saw yesterday in the Sistine Chapel we would soon be left with a congregation mostly of women and children.”.

    Those communities that use the Missal of Bl John XXIII (the TLM) on the other hand, have not been emasculated in the way that Novus Ordo communities have. We ought not ask, therefore, whether the Old Mass should follow the New in driving out the men, but rather, whether the practice of Novus Ordo communities ought not to be revised, root and branch, to reverse the emasculation that has occurred over the last 40 or so years. 

    Moreover, it’s incorrect to refer to “Eucharistic Ministers” – they are ‘Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion” – and they don’t exist in the Traditional Mass.

  • YoungAussieTrad

    I take it you are referring to “Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion” when you say “Eucharistic Ministers”.

    Clearly your strong opinions are uninformed by familiarity with the traditional Roman Rite.

    In answer to your questions:

    1. We don’t have lay EMHCs at all in the Traditional Mass. Everyone receives from the priest celebrant.

    2. We don’t have lay readers at the Traditional Mass – male or female. The epistle is chanted by the sub-deacon or read by the priest.

    3.Many TLM communities have female or mixed choirs – particularly suited to certain types of Sacred Polyphany. Sydney’s Choir of St Radegund is one excellent example with which I am personally familiar.

    Why is it that everyone has to “do something” in order to be a full participant at Mass? That is an error. One might participate more fully by silently uniting oneself to the Hoy Sacrifice, than by waving one’s appendages around the Church.

    The suggestion that those who attend the Tradtional Mass don’t have opinions or independent thought is both offensive and ignorant.  Many of us have been swimming against the fashionable ecclesiastical tide for many years, often at great personal cost.

    And yes, the spirituality of the Traditional Mass is primarily “interior” … to my mind, that is a higher, more elevated, more Catholic expression of spirituality than bestial gyrations, hand-clapping, tambourine playing, and so-called liturgical dancing. 

  • Namneh

    You appear to be  missing a crucial point … the issue is not about doing what “I ” want .”you” want  or “they” believe . The issue is one of correctness . What is the truthful decision ? Going back to 1962 thinking and practices  in the year 2011 may not be the correct thing to be trying to do .

  • Namneh

    A person with wisdom and experience as there counsel and guide can not help but question this small move affecting  the dignity of women and the subtle purpose of men in the hierarchy who , we , the church have begun to lose trust in .

  • Anonymous

    ‘The issue is one of correctness.” You left out the word “political”.

    The truthful decision is to continue on the collision course Vatican II set for us with it’s swap out of the unbloody sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the altar for a mere communal meal at a table, (that honors man, not God,) destruction of vocations and the mass exodus of millions of Catholics from the one, true Church?

    Over 80% of Catholics use birth control when in fact the Church still upholds the teachings of Humane Vitae and using contraception is still a mortal sin which will send your soul straight to hell. Yet a majority of Catholics use it and think nothing of going to Communion on Sundays in a state of mortal sin. When the priest in the Novus Ordo service turns his back on God to face the people is that the correct thing to do?

    “Going back to 1962 thinking and practices in the year 2011 may not be the correct thing to be trying to do.” Now who’s kidding who, Namneh? I wonder if the practices of 1962 were the correct thing for St. Teresa of Avila, or St. Charles Borromeo or St. John Vianney to do? No, let’s not miss the crucial point here and that is that many folks who like to flatter themselves that they are Catholics really don’t want to be bothered with the sacrificial aspects of our religion. It is so much easier to go to the Novus Ordo circus “masses” than to have to do all that pesky kneeling, genuflecting and have to pray those boring prayers at the foot of the altar at the end of Mass. People like to talk in church, thank you, so please don’t make them feel bad by pointing out that this is God’s house, it is a house of worship and not a place to hear the latest gossip or find out the football scores. And what a bother to actually have to exclude one’s self from receiving Communion if one has used birth control in the past week or one is on one’s second marriage with the first spouse still living. With the Novus Ordo there is always a priest around who will tell you that, it’s okay to use birth control, if you think it’s the right thing to do. (Wink, wink.) When a friend married a divorced Catholic man, a priest friend of theirs attended. While not officiating at the service it sure looks like the priest condoned the couples behavior by in fact just being there.

    Many Catholics I’ve met who follow the Novus Ordo like to do things there own way…my will, not yours Dear Lord. Going back to 1962 thinking and practices sure would put a damper on that.

  • Lefty048

    the rules you talk about, the pomp and cicumstance are not those of jesus christ they are the rules of men in power.  jesus never had a decorated or any other kind o cathedral, no stained glass window which now churches cannot be without, no golden chalice and i have never seen any pictures or paintings of him dressed in lace.  read the beatitudes i think the secter is there

  • Lefty048

    when did jesus wear lace?

  • Tim from Wales

    Surely living the Gospel is the mosy important part of being a Christian. I can not understand why so many people are so bothered by the gender of Altar Servers.  Our holy and all loving God and Father made us in His image – male AND female. He breathed the breath of life into us and He sent His Son to die for our sins and bring us back to Him. 

     I recall the narrative of Martha and Mary serving the Lord in their home (they were not males obviously!) and what about the woman who wept over the feet of our Lord and wiped His feet with her hair, the women who came with spices to the tomb of our Lord and witnessed the blessed angels announcing the joyous news of the resurrection and the many other women who administered to the needs of Our Lord and the Apostles. 

    Surely the Lord has as much love for His female children as His males and therefore they have as much right to serve at the blessed sacrament as males.  Let’s leave this gender argumentout of the life of the Church and let’s concentrate upon living the Gospel and celebrating the transubstantiation of the Holy Eucharist – regardless of our gender.

  • John D. Horton

    Yes, let’s leave things the way the were for the previous 2000 years in allowing only male altar boys.  The lesbian/feminists who push for female altar boys and female priests should be delt with as the heretics which they are.

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • John D. Horton

    “men wearing lace, that is women’s wear…”

    Yes, another ignorant reply from a Novus Ordo (i.e. “We are the world,” there are no rules) loving Catholic.  Lace is simply fancy embroidery which was historically reserved for royalty and ecclesiastics prior to where you got your history lesson at a “Victoria’s Secret” store. 

    Have your altar girls dress up in traditional 1950s style nuns habits (including the wimple and gimp) and see how long they last.  The purpose of altar girls is to sacrilegiously flirt with the idea that females can be ordained to the priesthood.  A girl wanting to dress up as a boy is a sign of self-loathing.  If a boy wanted to dress as a female, he would immediately be locked up in a mental institution. But for girls, the rules don’t apply.

    When boys can become nuns/sisters then girls can become altar boys in the spirit of secularist-feminist equality.  Why do lesbian feminists deny the opportunity for boys to become nuns/sisters? 

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • John D. Horton

    “Where would be RC Church in America  be today without the legions of women in pastoral positions, educational catechical leaders, teachers, Eucharistis Ministers, lectors, etc.”

    Women work for the Catholic Church because they are paid next to nothing and are willing to be demeaned by being paid next to nothing.  There is complete sexism in the hiring of lay people to work for the Catholic Church.  At the Cathedral for the Archdiocese of Seattle USA, there is a staff of over one dozen in the rectory and all are female except for the top administrative position (this is from 15 years ago when I was there).  Church secretaries, DREs, and other paid positions:  always female in the USA. 

    Another reason paid lay employees are 99% female is because Catholic clergy of the OF are overwhelmingly homosexual (see, Cozzens, Donald B., The changing face of the priesthood, 2000.  ISBN 0814625045) and feel completely overwhelmed and inadequate when dealing with normal, male, heterosexual men.  In other words, the homosexual clergy of the OF surround themselves with “fag hags” which may explain all the liturgical abberations and sex abuse scandals.

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • guest

    My parish priest has nieces and nephews so who knows… the tragedy is he would be a wonderful father. He would change the diapers too. Allowing priest to marry is more important that women’s ordination in my view. That a big reason for the drop in vocations, men do not want to live unfurfilled, they want sex lifes, they want someone to go home to and children. I know other priests who would make such wonderful grandfathers now too and I know despite their choice there is a lonliness in some of them, even regret with those that went into the seminary young.  I hadn’t forgotten that women cook, clean and wash priests clothes too. But still not clear what the woman’s role is in TLM communities other than watching men pray.

  • guest

    I know the things they don’t have in TLM, including lay readers. Just trying to work out what a woman’s special role is…BTW girls that are Alter Servers may not be able to be priests but the experience might give them a stronger bond with the church and give in them a love to serve in other ways, it might help them to care about Catholic teaching and it might help them to have a relationship with Jesus, through what they learn and hear. Those that are active within Mass male or female do so to serve, to give something, because church is a community of people, who love Christ, who asks use to love and serve him. I rarely see anything about God’s love when reading these threads by TLM people. … We are short of priests and he can’t be expected to do everything. If women didn’t read they wouldn’t be anyone quite often. There also would be nobody to serve “his precious blood” either. There would be nobody to taken the euchurist to the sick and housebound, because we don’t have enough men to do it. And some women don’t want a strange man in their house, a woman is better it that case, if a priest is not around.  The Parish Priest can do it all.   My personal preference is for a quiet mass without music at all, we have never had liturgical dancing which seems to be an American thing.  TLM is something nice to watch and it has smells and bells and rituals. Most of the people I have met that really love it are gay men.  In the OM we are encouraged to participate, to love God, to pray, to sing praises, to have God in our individual lives.  It is also interior, not only that but people can understand when the priest is saying, the use of Latin excludes many of the congregation from truely taking part. I also don’t like the distance it puts between the people and the Priest, it is unhealthy for them.

  • jemp

    I just think that this is very sad. Why turn away those who want to serve because of their gender? I just cannot see a good reason. Surely if it were so wrong my conscience would cry out… but as it is I just feel dissappointed in the church whom I so dearly love.

  • jemp

    haha this is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. I can only laugh. Brilliant: ‘lesbian/feminits’, what a rhetorical masterpiece.
    God Bless.
     p.s I note that you’re American, so for the sake of translation, when I say ‘brilliant’ I am being sarcastic.

  • jemp

    Jesus didn’t give Mass to any black people, or Indian or Chinese…
    In other words, don’t be a complete idiot and read the bible literally like a evangelical basket case. Go and use your enery more constructively in spreading the LOVE of the Lord.

  • http://blueberriesforme.wordpress.com/ Jackie

    I admire your dedication to live more Christ-like by following all the rules to a T. Can you tell me where Christ called someone ignorant? Which do you think he would find more important, a) not insulting other people of b) worrying about if lace is men’s wear.

    I’m not sure what you think my world is like, but please, if you hear of a parish that has a Hollywood transvestite altar server, I’d love to go check it out!

  • guest

    Men are leaving the church because they want sex lives without guilt and don’t agree with the teaching, they don’t want marriage with loads of children to support any more than women do. I know so many Catholics that will not attend Mass due to the teaching on Contraception alone, especially people in the medical and caring professions. Or because they dislike the succession of right wing Popes. I know plenty of men that support women as laity and are frustrated with the lack of progress or because the faithful are the older generation and dying out..Leaving widows who are often the backbone of the Catholic Church. .. Are Catholic men so weak and damaged that they can’t cope with a woman reading publically, they have to stay at home? It makes me appreciate my parish even more.  Where they damaged by bitter nuns in school? How do they cope with a woman boss at work? It seems to me that TLM is the mass for people that want to sit back and let the Priest do everything… In TLM who administers to the sick if the Priest can’t because he has no time? And are women allowed in Sanctuary to clean? Or to the super masculine men of that rite clean and wash the floor, because a woman defiles it by her presence? Sometimes I wonder if the supporters of TLM really want to be a exclusive little club, because if NO was reversed that is all it will be. Not only will you lose millions of Catholics, you will lose priests who do not even know Latin and are commited to NO and millions in donations.

  • guest

    I am so happy to know you would never set foot in my Parish. If women are the ones that apply for the jobs in the CC, then of course they will get them, especially if they have the experience, the jobs are often part time and low in pay. Women are used to lower paid jobs, for a man it often mean a pay cut and a job without any progression.  Homosexuality did not course the sex abuse scandals, there has been rampant sexual abuse by priest and nuns for decades, if the priests went into the seminary as young boys then they were targets. Sexual abuse is normally part of a cycle of abuse, the person that abuses, was abused and because of the time when nobody spoke ill of a priest or a nun, they never spoke about it. The Priests that abused were damaged by abuse and a teaching that sex is dirty and by being forced into something they had no vocation for. I know priests that are gay and they would never, ever abuse anyone, anymore than heterosexual priests that I know would. Those priests were not abused and are deeply commited to NO and loving God. One of the benefits on having Alter Servers that are both Boys and Girls is that along with Safeguarding it protects the children from any grooming because they are never alone with a Priest.
    And the clothes worn by alter boys and girls are genderless, they are the same shapeless design.
    No doubt you think jeans are mens clothes too and think women should only wear long dresses.