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Vatican: girls are not permitted to serve at old Mass

By on Wednesday, 8 June 2011

Altar servers kneel during Mass in the Extraordinary Form at the Basilica of St John Lateran in Rome (CNS photo)

Altar servers kneel during Mass in the Extraordinary Form at the Basilica of St John Lateran in Rome (CNS photo)

The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei has clarified that girls are not allowed to serve at the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

It made clear that the Instruction on Summorum Pontificum, Universae Ecclesiae, does not permit female altar servers at the older Mass.

Universae Ecclesiae states “the Moto Proprio Summorum Pontificum derogates from those provisions of law, connected with the Sacred Rites, promulgated from 1962 onwards and incompatible with the rubrics of the liturgical books in effect in 1962″. Permission for female altar servers came with the Circular Letter of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments of 1994. However, the rubrics of the 1962 Missal did not allow for females on the sanctuary during Mass.

The letter, signed by Mgr Guido Pozzo, Secretary of Ecclesia Dei, said that “permitting female altar servers does not apply to the Extraordinary Form”.

Fr Alban McCoy, university chaplain at Cambridge, has celebrated the Extraordinary Form with female altar servers. He said he did not seek to include women in his team of servers but “decided not to refuse the request of two young women to serve in the old form”.

His team includes six boys and four girls. “We have one team of servers for all Masses – Ordinary and Extraordinary; one rite of liturgy, one set of servers.”

A spokesman for the Latin Mass Society said the clarification was “significant” and that all bishops should practice in accordance with what has been stated in the letter.

  • John D. Horton

    “And the clothes worn by alter boys and girls…”
     
    Another ignorant OF rock:
     
    1.  “alter” is spelled altar,
     
    2.  “the clothes worn by alter (sic) boys and girls…” are not genderless.  Only a lesbian-feminist would embrace the uni-sex clothing style which began in the 1970s which attempts to deny God’s creation of creating Adam (a man) and then creating Eve (a female) from Adam’s rib.  Server’s attire is inherently a priestly (male) vestments whether its a cassock and surplus or the alb.  The alb (the all white, floor-length garment) is used in the EF and prior to VII in the whole Catholic Church as the base or foundation vestment of the priest at Mass and is historically derived from the Roman toga which only men wore.  The cassock (black, floor-length robe) was academic dress for university students (males only) during the Middle Ages (500 – 1500 A.D.) when most students were seminarians studying for the priesthood.  The surplus is a shortened form of the alb used by those in major or minor orders who are not directly officiating at the altar as priest, deacon or subdeacon. 
     
    3.  You are ignorant because you attend a OF parish where the priest wants to keep you stupid and uninformed.  I was a history major in college and the last thing an OF priest wants is an intelligent and knowledgeable laity.  
     
    “One of the benefits on having Alter Servers that are both Boys and Girls is that along with Safeguarding it protects the children from any grooming because they are never alone with a Priest.”
     
    In 1995 at the Cathedral in Seattle USA, they began the practice of having a female lesbian-feminist “minder” watch the altar boys while they were vesting in the altar boy’s vesting area which was in a room adjacent to the sacristy.  There are no reported instances of altar boys sexually abusing other altar boys in the history of the Catholic Church (that I know of) and yet Archbishop Hunthausen and his stooge, Fr. Michael Ryan (of “just wait” and don’t accept the new Roman Missal, 3d edition, fame and cathedral rector) put a huge bull-dyke lesbian (300 pounds) in charge of watching the altar boys.  It was extremely offensive to the altar boys to be subjected to a presumption of perversity and then to have a bull-dyke lesbian put on them was the height of hypocrisy.  The bull-dyke lesbian had been the rectory cook but probably due to blackmail, she was promoted to director of religious education and altar boy prison guard. 

    John D. HortonLAWTON, OKLAHOMA
    USA

  • John D. Horton

    “Homosexuality did not course (sic. cause) the sex abuse scandals,…”

    Wrong, yet again.  OF Catholics must be living in another universe.

    80% of sexual abuse is priest (adult male) on teenage males (ages 13 – 19) which could more acurately and specifically be referred to a homosexual “ephebophilia” (generally, sexual attraction by an adult male to teenage males).  See:  The Causes and Context of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests in the 
    United States, 1950-2010 / John Jay College Research Team. — NY: The Team, 2011.  http://www.usccb.org/mr/causes-and-context-of-sexual-abuse-of-minors-by-catholic-priests-in-the-united-states-1950-2010.pdf

    The term “child sexual abuse” has been used by the hierarchy (and for some unknown reason by the media?) to confuse the real issue which is homosexual abuse by priests against male teenagers.  In the eyes of the hierarchy it is better to be known as a “child sexual abuser” which denotes, perhaps, heterosexual abuse of females under 12, rather than as a homosexual predator on teenage males. 

    So, yes, there is a major homosexual problem with Catholic clergy which helps to explain their lack of interest in the liturgy or tradition since Vatican II, and the misery they have brought to traditional Catholics.  Even if only 3 – 5% of Catholic clergy have been accused of homosexual ephebophilia, the other 95% of Catholic clergy had to have helped cover it up.

    In the USA since 1960, the Catholic Church has paid out over $2 billion in damages to victims of Catholic priest homosexual ephebophilia which would have gold-plated every closed Catholic school, parish, convent and monastery here.  (See, citation above).   

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • John D. Horton

    In the above post, “Surplus” should be spelled “surplice.” 

    “It was originally a long garment with open sleeves reaching nearly to the ground, as it remains in the Anglican tradition, but in the Roman Catholic tradition, the surplice often has shorter, closed sleeves and square shoulders. Anglicans typically refer to a Roman-style surplice with the Medieval Latin term cotta [meaning 'cut-off' in Italian], as it is derived from the cut-off alb. English-speaking Roman Catholics, however, typically do not make the distinction between the two styles, and refer to both by the term “surplice”. (Wikipedia:  Surplice).

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ken-Purdie/1162381995 Ken Purdie

    NCR” widely read”. Do me a favour. Its a total rag read by the usual suspects who would rather be Protestants. I wish they would have the courage to do just that, and stop spouting forth drivel and calling it ” Catholic”!

  • Guest

    Good for Fr. Alban McCoy in Cambridge.

  • Steve

    Remember, Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church. He is the foundation. The walls may be cracking, but the foundation is solid. Let him run it the way he wants to run it. I suggest that we all say the Rosary daily, go to adorations weekly, and confession once a month. See what kind of results and answers you get then.

  • a girl

    Our Lord didn’t specify which sex of people should serve at Mass, but then neither did he specify the role of  altar server at all (or the way that Mass is currently celebrated, or a lot of other Catholic services/rituals, etc, for that matter). I am doing my absolute best to comprehend this issue and for my opinions to be in harmony with the Church, but am genuinely struggling to understand, especially when a lot of people posting here seem to be equating God’s word with the word of those in the Church (Popes throughout the ages; documents like Vatican II, etc). If anyone can shed any real light on the situation I would really like to hear it…..

  • a girl

    Isn’t it also reading the Bible literally to say that ‘The Last Supper only included men by the design of Our Lord.  The Mass, as a re-presentation of the Last Supper, follow the example of Our Lord in only allowing males to function as ministers’, as Radactrice points out? The Church has interpreted Jesus’ having only men present at the Last Supper to mean he meant only men to be priests,  but how can we know he didn’t mean women to take Communion or go to Mass at all??
    It’s also reading the Bible literally to take Jesus’ “This is my body” to mean he is present in Communion. And by the way, evangelicals and other Protestants, who are supposed to take the Bible literally according to you, don’t believe in the “Real Presence”! Any enlightening responses welcome….

  • a girl

    The people who doubt what the Church is now saying about female altar servers aren’t trying to impose their will over God’s. They are genuinely unsure. There can be a genuine angst attached to trying to discern the truth, and doubts that people have aren’t just purposeful sins.So there is no need to brand them as “disobedient”, “prideful”, or anything else. 
    Furthermore, are you proposing that only the Pope and those in the Magisterium who make these rules for us are the only humans to be guided by the Holy Spirit?? Is it impossible that anyone outside of this circle should be guided by the Holy Spirit?? Yes, the Pope is a lot holier and more knowledgeable about faith and Church traditions, but we should remember that Jesus came to the UNEDUCATED, and of course to SINNERS. 
    Any (polite!) responses at all are genuinely welcomed….

  • Dipconsult

    The Latin Mass Society (England) has a very good blog (see their website) by the Chairman about female altar servers that I suggest is worth reading.

    The Catholic church has always had the highest regard for the role women play in the life of the church which of course stems from the Mother of God – and from the essential role women play in the Gospels. In modern times we have had several outstanding women- to name only three: Bl Mother Teresa amd Saints Therese and Bernadette.
    I’ m afraid the “problem” comes from the current politically correct dogma (not too strong a word, I’m afraid!)  that “as everyone is equal all must have the same rights and play the same roles”. But men and women are not the same, and their contributions to the life of the church have been and are of equal importance, but in certain important respects different.

    Personally I believe the church in our times has been far too slow in listening to women and that immense damage has been done to the church by ingoring, or giving too little weight to, their advice and testimony.
      

        

  • Anonymous

    No, I am not proposing that the Holy Spirit only works through the Magesterium (Pope and Bishops in union), as the Holy Spirit has been given to all of us by Christ.  Nor am I branding anyone in particular as disobedient or prideful. I was speaking in generalities about being on a very slippery slope. The teaching authority to pass down the deposit of faith has only been given to the Magesterium through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It’s an issue of authority, and where it lies, in order to safeguard the deposit of faith. (In Protestant churches this is a problem, as they have no legitimate authority. Anyone can decide what is true based on what they personally feel the Holy Spirit may be telling them.) I may or may not feel something is true, or even agree with all of the teachings of the Church. However I am bound to adhere to the teachings, even those not handed down ex cathedra. Those teachings handed down through Ordinary Magesterium (used to clarify teachings, not create new doctrine/dogma) require religious submission of intellect and will. In my above post I was not reproaching anyone. I was merely trying to explain the basis of the teaching, as I personally find that historical/background information helps put things in proper perspective/context. I have personally have had to struggle my own issues regarding various teachings. What I found was that after years of prayer, study, and reflection, the Holy Spirit opened the eyes of my heart to the truth of the Church’s teachings. I had to pray for the gift of understanding, and patiently wait to receive it. I’m honestly not judging others. I was truly trying to be a voice of reason.

  • Anonymous

    I apologize for upsetting you. I realize upon a reread of part of my comment that I was being uncharitable and should have worded it differently. I’m truly sorry. I was not intending to apply judgement to your character, as I was speaking in generalities. But felt that you may not have fully understood the true teaching of the Church on what we may or may not dispute as Catholic faithful. My point was that we are bound to adhere to the teachings of the Church, those we agree with and those we do not. It’s not that we cannot think for ourselves and use our brains. It’s an issue of authority and who has the final say. It’s not the laity. It’s the Magesterium, ex cathedra or not. Many, many encyclicals and historical teachings of the early Church Fathers support this. I did not always know, and personally know many faithful Catholics who were uninformed as I had been, about this issue of authority.

  • The_Monk

    It seems cruel to let the girls serve at altar during Mass, as no girl can ever become priest.  It is an empty and barren act, letting girls serve Mass.  What fruit will it bear?

  • a girl

    Thanks, i will have a look at the blog you mention.
    The thing that everyone keeps going about is that priesthood and alter serving is part of the role of men in the Church. No one has mentioned what the role of women’s is at all (oh except reproduction, in which case, well, I might as well not have a brain) and it might be helpful for someone in authority to define this a bit better, in order to counter the message that this is all giving out, which is…. That they don’t have a role! And trying to deny that this is the message given off is futile, because this IS what comes across from the (albeit limited) reading I have done on the subject.
    Again, any enlightening comments would be welcome…

  • John D. Horton

    If you want to wear long religious apparel, no one is stopping you from joining a traditionalist community of religious sisters or nuns. 

    Question 1:  Why do women not want to join female religious communities and wear the habit of those communities, but would rather ape what have historically and theologically always been men’s roles and apparel in the Church (priest, deacon, altar boy, etc.)?

    Question 2:  If you truly believe in equality in the Church, why have no female religious communities ever opened their novitiates to men and bestowed their habits on men including the wimple and veil?

    Question 3:  Why does feminist “equality” only work one way, i.e. women wanting to ape men in their work and dress but not allowing males to ape women in their work and dress (i.e. not allowing boys and men to become sisters/nuns wearing the habit, veil and wimple)?

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • John D. Horton

    Question 1 answer:  Feminist self-loathing.

    Question 2 answer:  Feminist hypocrisy.

    Question 3 answer:  Feminist lack of clear thinking. 

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • John D. Horton

    From wikipedia:  Women in the patristic age

    Limited ecclesiastical roles

    Ministry restricted to men

    From the early patristic age, the offices of teacher and sacramental minister were reserved for men throughout most of the church in the East and West.[4] Tertullian, the 2nd century Latin father, wrote that “It is not permitted to a woman to speak in church. Similarly, the fourth century theologian Epiphanius of Salamis claimed that “Never from the beginning of the world has a woman served God as priest”.(“Against the heresies”)

    Diaconate reserved to men

    In early centuries, the Eastern church allowed women to participate to a limited extent in ecclesiastical office by ordaining deaconesses, whereas in the West the diaconate (as with higher offices) was reserved only for men.[4] Neither may she teach, baptize, offer, nor claim for herself any function proper to a man, least of all the sacerdotal office, according to Terutllian. ” (“On the Veiling of Virgins”)

    Image of women as seen by theologians

    Woman as the root of all evil

    Tertullian’s views on women went further: “The curse God pronounced on your sex still weighs on the world. …You are the devil’s gateway…. You are the first that deserted the divine laws. All too easily you destroyed the image of God, Adam. Because you deserved death, it was the son of God who had to die”.[5]
    St Jerome, the well known Biblical scholar and translator of the Bible into Latin (the Vulgate) have a simple view of women. To him “woman is the root of all evil.” [6] Like all the early Christian theologians, Jerome glorified virginity and looked down on marriage. He reasoning, was also rooted in Genesis: “Eve in paradise was a virgin … understand that virginity is natural and that marriage comes after the Fall.” [7]

    Firmilian tells of a woman who went into an ecstasy and came out a prophetess. “That woman who first through marvels or deceptions of the demons did many things to deceive the faithful, among other things… she dared to do this, namely that by an impressive invocation she feigned she was sanctifying bread, and offering a sacrifice to the Lord.” [8]

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • John D. Horton

    According to St. Thomas Aquinas, women are not part of the original creation of God, are questionably human, and therefore not suitable to lead public worship in the sactuary (as priest, deacon or altar boy).  Also, women in the sactuary would make men in the congregation subject to women which would be a violation of the natural order. 
    (see, http://www.aquinasonline.com/Questions/women.html).  This is the article:

    The most common reference to the views of Aquinas and Aristotle on women cites Summa Theologiae, Ia, q. 92, a. 1, Obj. 1. The question is whether woman should have been created in the beginning of the world, before the Fall of Adam and the introduction of sin into the world. Aquinas entertains the objection that, because of her imperfection, woman should not have been part of the original creation.

    Objection 1: It would seem that the woman should not have been made in the first production of things. For the Philosopher says (De Gener. ii, 3), that “the female is a misbegotten male.” But nothing misbegotten or defective should have been in the first production of things. Therefore woman should not have been made at that first production.
    Aquinas’ basic reply is “yes,” woman should have been produced in the Eden, since she is necessary for the generation of the species. Having answered thus (and upheld the reasonableness of God’s actually having created woman in Eden), he has to contend with the objection which cites the leading scientific authority of the time, Aristotle. He does so by conceding Aristotle’s point that woman is “misbegotten,” but only considered as an individual and only with respect to the body or matter, and not the soul. (By the way, Aquinas’ words which are usually translated as “defective and misbegotten” are in Latin deficiens et occasionatus, which can mean “unfinished and caused accidentally.” Some have argued that, because of this alternate reading, Aquinas is free of the negative connotations which attach to some translations of his works.)

    Reply to Objection 1: As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence; such as that of a south wind, which is moist, as the Philosopher observes (De Gener. Animal. iv, 2). On the other hand, as regards human nature in general, woman is not misbegotten, but is included in nature’s intention as directed to the work of generation.
    Thus, in spite of Aristotle’s biology, Aquinas believes that woman is perfect in her nature as directed to the generation of the human species. This hardly makes him a champion of the rights and dignity of women; he does seem to suffer from the view (quite universal at the time), that women are inferior to men in both mind and body, and are naturally subject to them. His version is somewhat enlightened, though; he did not believe women are the slaves of men.

    Reply to Objection 2: Subjection is twofold. One is servile, by virtue of which a superior makes use of a subject for his own benefit; and this kind of subjection began after sin. There is another kind of subjection which is called economic or civil, whereby the superior makes use of his subjects for their own benefit and good; and this kind of subjection existed even before sin. For good order would have been wanting in the human family if some were not governed by others wiser than themselves. So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in man the discretion of reason predominates.
    Aquinas does even have a few words to say in favor of the fact that women are equal in dignity to men. Defending the fittingness of God’s making Eve from the rib of Adam, Aquinas takes Scripture in an allegorical sense to signify the equality between them.
    ST, q. 92, a. 3: I answer that, It was right for the woman to be made from a rib of man. First, to signify the social union of man and woman, for the woman should neither use authority over man,’ and so she was not made from his head; nor was it right for her to be subject to man’s contempt as his slave, and so she was not made from his feet.
    Being made from his side, she is his equal, though still subject to his direction. I don’t think Aquinas was a rabid misogynist (as I have sometimes heard it alleged), but neither was he much ahead of his time. He does not seem to have had as low an estimation of women as others in the Middle Ages, though.

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • Mferry8

    There are many churches where the Novus Ordo is prayed beautifully and the faithful show due reverence. The NO was not adopted without a vote. I too have seen many abuses at NO masses. I have also attended the EF which is also beautiful when prayed well. The faithful, I observed, however, did not sing. No, it was not a Mass where the faithful were not required to sing, either. I asked the very holy priest about the lack of participation. He cringed. This may not be typical and my reason for relating it is that there can abuse anywhere. For too long the faithful have been poorly catechized. The ordained share with the laity a lack of knowledge of the True Faith. Our own Church allowed us to go astray. AMEN to no girls on the altar! We have none now in my parish where the NO is prayed.

  • Lefty048

    does this mean god is a homosexual?

  • Lefty048

    to all of you out there please remember john is from oklahoma.  they are not noted for their educational system.  they do play football well.  needless to say he will be voting for the republican party.  the party of jesus?

  • Orangecedar

    Jackie, I will pray for Mr Horton too; but I’m sorry, I will not pray for his ordination.  God help us!  I am devastated that such men believe that they are being true to the Word of God. In anything that he has written, where is Jesus’ First Law of Love evident?  Mr Horton refers to St Thomas Aquinas as an authority.  Aquinas himself realised at the end of his life, that his life’s work was folly:

    “…all that I have written seems like straw to me.”  St Paul himself wrote that “now I see as in a mirror, dimly; then, I will see face to face”. 

    We can but pray and hope in the mercy of God.

  • Anonymous

    Three cheers for the PCED!  

  • Nat_ons

    You miss the point, A G, both of Tradition and its key and central witness - Scripture. The priestly service of the gospel (the hierarchic aspect) relates to the service of a certain type of leadership (the presbyteral type) and it is this that is expressed symbolically at the first Eucharist and all subsequent offerings at Christ’s altar = the Cross (as apostolic rule). All who are anointed into Christ at the Sacrament of Baptism enter a sovereign priesthood, male, female or whatever; this is not the presbyterate, for such elders are allotted rulership among God’s people in Christ from the Spirit and by the church catholic; that priestly ministry of the elder, the public expression of Christ in person, is a specific fatherly call .. and not all can be such ‘fathers’.

    This does not exclude women from leadership in the church catholic, think of Catherine of Sienna, nor does it limit the teaching role to the whole church, read Therese of Lisieux, nor from a high profile in the life of the church, look to Mary. Each of these examples are far from being shrinking violets, intimidated into silent observation of their men folk, or deemed incapable of showing leadership in witness – and they are not alone or exceptions. Only the manner differs not the value; that these great souls had to struggle to be heard is true, but so too have many – if not most - male saints .. this is the reason for the canonical sainthood.

    The church catholic asks different things of different people, for not all are apostles, or teachers, or healers .. although all can aid in each, if this is the gift. From the first days women were entrusted with guardian outreach, especially among other women, on their own terms (even today there are women only groups, not only for mending socks). Men in this same spirit of service - may God help us all - were also entrusted with public ministries (exposing their weakness, fecklessness and helplessness to all, so that God’s strength might been seen at work before men = all the more); one of these ministries is the gospel’s fatherly leadership.

    “Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.” 1 Cor 4 : 15.

  • Leonora Emerald

    Christ was male and the 12 disciples were also male yet othe influencial people in his life were women (for example Mary mother of Christ, Veronica, Mary Magdalene). These were increadibly strong women compared to his male influences considering womens role in society at the time. Personally I have nothing against female altar servers, infact I think female deacans should be aloud however not priests, which may seem like a contradiction, because I still think the priest is an important part in the eucharist- breaking of the bread and wine.

    I would like responses to my argument but please bare in mind I am only 14.

  • Adrian F Sunman

    I’m an Anglican and at the cathedral where is usually attend the Sunday Sung Eucharist which is in accordance with the 1662 Prayer Book (the Anglican ‘Extraordinary Form’) we regularly have female servers and occasionally a female celebrant.  I’m hard pressed to see what the fuss is about.  Yes, the Extraordinary Form is technically governed by an older set of rubrics to the modern Novus Ordo Mass.  However when used liturgically it’s still a living rite and is prayed as the church’s prayer in 2011, not 1962 or 1570.  Surely the way it’s used should reflect that.  The fact that female altar servers were unknown in the RC church when the 1962 Missal was compiled, is a weak argument for not having them now, given that authority has sanctioned them at other (Novus Ordo)  Masses.   

  • IrishCatholic

    The comments here are severely depressing.  Altar boys are not priests – nor are they necessarily intended to be.  My father was an altar boy and he fully supports female altar servers. Women do not become altar servers because they want to rival men, but because they want to express a particular kind of devotion.  The alternatives are not always viable – if one can’t sing, the choir is out of the question, and not many women would choose to become nuns instead just as most boys would not become monks if the situation was reversed.  As yet, I have not heard a coherent reason as to why women should not be altar servers, except that until a few years ago it was not the case.  This alone does not seem sufficient justification for anything! And @ dorothy: girls get lovely, symbolic dresses? A worthy substiute for devotion then.  Perhaps if we give all women pretty mantillas they will be so distracted they leave higher matters to men, and many of the contributors to this thread will have to find another hobbyhorse. 

  • RAID for trolls

    You should slither on back to democrat party headquarters from whence you came. Your boss, Satan, needs you on the troll line to lie to some old lady that the opposition is going to take away her medicare.

  • Monica

    I don’t think girls should be altar servers in any case, I think it would be better if all altar servers were given some discernment materials, nothing too strong or serious if they’re quite young, but emphasizing them looking up to the priest as a role model and potential future vocation.

    I remember clearly when I was a child thinking that the boy altar servers were in training for the priesthood and the girl altar servers were in training to become nuns. I was pretty disillusioned a few years later when I found out that none of my fellow altar servers were really giving any great thought to what they were doing, they mostly did it because their parents made them. I was a girl altar server for a while but I never really liked doing it, I had performance anxiety and had trouble praying while I was worried about everyone watching me. I greatly prefer being in the pew and being able to concentrate on praying the Mass humbly.

  • John D. Horton

    First, you need to put away your “Rotary Club” and “junior high school student council” (or its equivalents) understanding of the practices of the Church which would evaluate authentic Church practices based on modernist, secular and feminist concepts of utilitarianism (i.e. what is a particular activity in the Church “doing” for me and what do I get out of it) and gender-equity (i.e. if a boy can do something I can’t, I am being discriminated against).  In your vision of the Church “You want to do what You want to do because You want to do it.”  The Church is a way for you to “express” yourself even though that is not what service is all about.  
     
    Contrary to the popular belief of most bishops, priests and laity, Vatican II did not eliminate the Catholic Church and create a new and almost unrecognizable “Rotary Club” entity in its place whose guiding principle is “Can’t we all just get along” from the children’s TV show “Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood.”  Rather, the Catholic Church is an historical entity founded on historical facts of Christ’s ministry and the founding of his Church in time.  Historical precedent therefore, is very important in the Church.  Altar boys have existed for almost 2000 years as a way to introduce boys to the possibility of becoming a priest.  The current order of precedence of those who may attend and minister to the priest at Mass are as follows:  1. Other priests, 2. deacons, 3. sub-deacons, 4. porters, 5. lectors, 6. exorcists, 7. acolytes, and 8. altar boys if none of the previous 1 - 7 are available.  This is the historical reality of the Church. 

    Girls can’t become priests, therefore, girls can’t become altar boys which is clearly an introduction to the priesthood following the reverse scale of 8 to 1 listed above.  (See wikipedia:  “Minor orders” for a discussion of 4 – 7, above).  Altar boys are clearly an entry point for those in a progression up the minor and major orders to that of priest.

    As a reality check on good practice in the Church, you will notice that the Pope does not have any altar girls serving him at St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome.   On the road however, where the Pope is not always 100% completely in charge of liturgical celebrations, I am sure that most bishops, whose top priority is service to the lesbian/feminist mafia and its agenda (women priests), would try to impose altar girls on the Pope as a means for the bishops to show their solidarity with the lesbian/feminist mafia. 
     
    According to to Wikipedia (“female altar servers” article), the first altar girls in modern times started in 1965 in Germany presumably to further the agenda of the nascent lesbian/feminist mafia which would have its full flowering of demonic heretical rage in the WomenChurch movement of the 1970s and beyond which sought ordination to the priesthood for women. 
     
    John D. HortonLawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • Mary

    God hears all prayers, both male and female.
    .
    Being a priest is about personal sacrifice, not power.
    .
    If you want temporal power, there is noone more powerful than a nun in a habit – just watch the seas part when Sister comes in the room.

  • Helen Lang

    John you sound like a very sad individual indeed! Your obvious hatred of women must be eating you up! get over it, we,re here to stay!

  • Helen Lang

    I suppose al the male altar servers were absolutely pristine!

  • BpDominic

    Throw aside this ritualism and grasp Christ to your heart – for He alone can save you and all else is just so much dust in the wind…

  • John D. Horton

    “Throw aside this ritualism”:  Isn’t this the heresy of “Catharism” of the 11th century (see Wikipedia:  Catharism):  “Cathars, in general, formed an anti-sacerdotal party in opposition to the Catholic Church, protesting what they perceived to be the moral, spiritual and political corruption of the Church.”

    So let’s see BpDominic:

    1.  Christ did not found the Church?  Then no need for the Church.

    2.  Christ did not found the priesthood?  Then no need for priests.

    3.  Christ did not institute the Seven Sacraments?  No need for the Sacraments.

    4.  Christ did no write the New Testament?  No need for the New Testament since it was written by his first bishops and the canonical list of the New Testament writings was only recognized by the no-need bishops during the 4th through 6th centuries:

    “In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of the books that would become the twenty-seven-book NT canon,[9] and he used the word “canonized” (kanonizomena) in regards to them.[10] The first council that accepted the present canon of the New Testament may have been the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (AD 393); the acts of this council, however, are lost. A brief summary of the acts was read at and accepted by the Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419.[11] These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed.[12][13] Pope Damasus I’s Council of Rome in 382, if the Decretum Gelasianum is correctly associated with it, issued a biblical canon identical to that mentioned above,[14] or, if not, the list is at least a 6th-century compilation.[15]”  (See Wikipedia:  Development of the New Testament canon).”

    Thank you BpDominic for creating the Church of Complete Anarchy otherwise known as the Novus Ordo or Ordinary Form Catholic Church.

    John D. Horton
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    USA

  • Dhallmantarif

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  • Dhallmantarif

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  • Nugent Noags

    Dickhead.

  • Elizabeth

    I am sorry if you think that reproduction is all women are worth. I have 4 children and we have been abandoned by their father because he thinks he knows better than God. I believe that apart from taking vows becoming a mother is the most fulfilling act a women can do and it is something no man can do whatever they may think. Men are not more equal than women in any regard, the Lord made us as two parts of one whole. He gave us a very special role in His Church on earth and all we have to do is follow the example of Our Blessed Mother. We say yes to God and follow his teachings in a humble loving and paitient way. Yes Jesus held women in high regard why would he not? Only to the apostles though did he give the power to perform the Consecration and forgive sins. Jesus founded His Church on earth putting Peter at the head and at no time were women included in that part of the plan. To put women in that role denies men their rightful place and tells God that we think we no better than Him. The lack of altar boys is due to the invaision of girls and the twisting of the NOMass. There is no reverence and majesty anymore, it has been so abused that in a lot of places you would not know it was Catholic and that is due in parr to having women interfere. My children love the Tridentine Mass; they are 2,4,8 & 12, my eldest serves at the altar and none of them want to go to a NO Mass over the Latin Right. They behave, kneel and participate at their own levels and it is heartwarming to know I can give them this opportunity to come to God in such a wonderful way. My children have to spend time with their father and he will only let them come to Mass if they want and my 2 year old says yes. I tell you there has been a lot more damage done to the human race by humans thinking they know better than God than by keeping sacred tradition and the Churches infallible teaching.

  • Non sequitur.

    Jesus made a married man his first Pope- ergo……. following  scripture….. all Popes should be married. Bachelorhood should preclude a man from being made Pope. See what “logic” does!

  • Mclom

    The Mass is not about individuals feeling left out of things because of their personal psychological make up, but about worshipping God using the formula Jesus used.  There were no women present for the first Mass, and the Church flourished without female servers for two thousand years.  The insistance on change is based on pride and politics.

  • Fight for our faith

    Namneh,

    Perhaps you, and the rest of the last remnants of faithful, may not have noticed that, Modernism, and disobedience, has ruined our church.  A return to a stricter doctrine, and more faithful and obedient Catholic practice, is the only way to gain the respect that has been lost?

  • Jim Tustain

    Personally, I think that the whole discussion about having femail alter servers is a load of nonsense.  Let’s face it, the most loyal and trusted people who served Jesus, when he was on earth, were women.  His own Mother, was one example of faithfulness.  And of course, Mary Magdalene was one of those people plus the women who used their own resources to help Jesus.  The whole subject needs to be be kept in perspective.
    Jim Tustain

  • katie

    Going back to traditon is not always a bad thing. How is the church working for us with all of the changes to the American way?Answer is not so hot.Lets go back to some of them

  • katie

    Would not hurt if it went back to the traditions of of the 50s and 60s

  • Katie

    Nuns should make a come back in the American Catholic church if they want to serve. We can use them again

  • Anonymous

    Hey, we agree….wouldn’t it be great if women would put on the habit and serve God and His Church in humble obedience?  I grew up with the nuns and I’ve seen what wonders they can do…..look at Mother Teresa!

  • http://twitter.com/MysteriumFidei David Diehr

    There are a lot of unknowledgeable RCIA instructors out there.  My best friend was taught by one (taught very little) when she entered the Church,

  • Fraida

    I have read the National “Catholic” Reporter and I am disgusted with it.  The only thing about reading it is that you see just how liberal these people are – they are total dissenters from Catholic teaching – and in that sense are boardering on schismatic.  Many of the views expressed there in relation to homosexuality would not be acceptable to a lot of Protestants.

    The Novus Ordo Mass will die out naturally as there are so few vocations to the priesthood – conversely vocations are flooding into the traditional orders who offer the Latin Mass.

    There is wide-spread liturgical abuses at most Sunday Novus Ordo Masses – which have deteriorated into a meet and greet session – with dreadful ditties and children eating chippies at Mass, people sitting in the pews cross-legged, arms-folded, many wearing jeans and beach attire and a lot of talking all the way through Mass … because of this I go to the Latin Mass whenever I can.  I’m sorry but I no longer feel as if I am among Catholics worshippers at a Sunday Novus Ordo Mass – there is better behaviour at the movies.

  • Fraida

    Unfortunately, what she says is true – a friend of mine went through the RCIA here in New Zealand – he was handed a paper cup and told to cut it into the shape of the church he wanted to see – the three RCIA members who inducted him: 1 ran off with a married parishioner; the woman member left and became an Anglican priest(ess) and the third a priest, ended up in prison … I’ll say no more.