Mon 20th Oct 2014 | Last updated: Sun 19th Oct 2014 at 21:53pm

Facebook Logo Twitter Logo RSS Logo
Hot Topics

Latest News

Vatican recalls nuncio to Ireland

By on Monday, 25 July 2011

Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza leaves the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin (Julien Behal/PA Wire)

Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza leaves the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin (Julien Behal/PA Wire)

In an exceptional move, the Vatican has recalled its nuncio to Ireland so that he could participate in meetings aimed at drafting a formal response to an Irish government report on clerical sex abuse.

The Vatican said that following the publication of the Cloyne Report “and, particularly, after the reactions that followed, the secretary of state has recalled the apostolic nuncio in Ireland, Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza, for consultations”.

Passionist Fr Ciro Benedettini, vice director of the Vatican press office, said recalling the nuncio “denotes the seriousness of the situation, the desire of the Holy See to face it with objectivity and determination, as well as a certain note of surprise and disappointment over some excessive reactions” to the report and its accusations against the Vatican.

The Cloyne Report, which examined how the Diocese of Cloyne handled accusations of clerical sexual abuse, said the bishop paid “little or no attention” to child safeguarding as recently as 2008 and that he falsely told the government his diocese was reporting all allegations of abuse to the civil authorities.

The report also accused the Vatican of being “entirely unhelpful” to Irish bishops who wanted to implement stronger norms for dealing with accusations and protecting children.

Addressing parliament last week, Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny said the Cloyne Report “exposes an attempt by the Holy See to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign, democratic republic as little as three years ago”.

“And in doing so, the Cloyne Report excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism and the narcissism that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day,” the prime minister said.

After the prime minister spoke, Jesuit Fr Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, issued a statement calling for greater objectivity in discussing “topics so dramatic” because the first concern of all should be “the safeguarding of children and of young people and the renewal of a climate of trust and collaboration” between Church and state.

In announcing the recall of the nuncio, Fr Benedettini said the Vatican Secretariat of State wanted to ensure its response to the Cloyne Report was serious and complete, and to do that it was necessary that “the person on the scene”, Archbishop Leanza, took part in drafting discussions along with officials from the congregations for the doctrine of the faith, religious, clergy and bishops.

He said the Vatican expected to forward its formal response to the Irish government before the end of August.

In a statement Irish foreign minister Eamon Gilmore said: “The decision to recall the papal nuncio to the Vatican for consultations is a matter for the Holy See. The government is awaiting the response of the Holy See to the recent report into the Catholic Diocese of Cloyne and it is to be expected that the Vatican would wish to consult in depth with the nuncio on its response.”

A day earlier, Mr Kenny told a crowd during a visit to County Donegal he had received “thousands of messages from around the world” supporting his comments.

“The numbers of members of the clergy who have been in touch in the last few days, to say it is about time somebody spoke out about these matters in a situation like you are, has astounded me,” Mr Kenny added.

“I haven’t made any other comments except to say that we await the response from the Vatican,” he said.

Contributing to this story was Michael Kelly in Dublin.

  • Honeybadger

    The Vatican ‘got it’, as you put it; the Irish Government didn’t and, unless it starts getting some sphericals of its own, never will.

    Enda Kenny did himself and Ireland a great disservice by his attitude and behaviour in the Dail with regards the Cloyne Report and The Vatican. If the current Dail – and its Taoiseach – carry on like this, Ireland will lose more and more credibility… for the little it has left.

  • Honeybadger

    Oh, go take a chill pill, stop bashing your bible and go read it instead!

  • CM

    May I offer an alternative view on the RC Church as a democracy?

    Cardinals elect a Pope, monks elect their abbots, the laity elect their paish and deanery councils.

    The laity often ‘vote’ with their feet (and their wallets) when ordained members of the Church act irresponsibly or make unpopular decisions, e.g. closing parishes, changing Mass times, - in fact a great many people are walking away from the Roman Catholic Church altogether for a whole variety of reasons.

    In some countries (South America) the clergy are walking out to join the Anglicans, a kind of reverse ordinariate.

    Democracy does not necessarily involve organised elections, it can simply mean having the opportunity, or freedom to make a choice. 

    It seems the Church (and we ARE the Church), can and does operate as a form of democracy more than it might like to admit! Unlike political democracies, there is absolutely nothing those in positions of power can do about it.

  • Fiona Johnston

    I am not a Catholic but I attended a Catholic Convent up in Scotland. I had to attend a Catholic mass on Sunday but I treated it like any other ecclesiastical service and I found the experience on the whole interesting and a great education. I found the priests kind and evidently normal so it is an eye opener recently in the last ten or twenty years have been seriously erring fromthe straight and narrow.  I read somewhere that this tendency towards paedophilia asa mental illness and that no better place for them is in prison with the key thrown away. If supposing this be the case, which I doubt that it is, hasn’t this been a problem with other instances of mental illness because psychiatric problems are the first to be sacrificed in terms of proper medical care. I for one think that it is time that the Vatican started to seriously acknowledge they have a major social problem within its ranks and work together with the civil authorities, governments, law and order organisations to expose any priests who have deviated into depravity such as the sexual abuse of young children.  The Vatican must not stand in the way of those in government, especially couragious MP’s such as Mr Kenny in Ireland and clear out their Aegian stables.

  • Harper

    There is nothing pretentious about it. The Holy See is recognised as a sovereign state, as is the Sovereign Order of Malta, by the majority of independent states around the world. You may not like it. You may wish it were otherwise, but that is the real legal and diplomatic position. The current Kulturkampf will pass away, just like other such campaigns before it, including Bismarck’s. History is littered with such would-be conquerors of Rome, from Attila to Frederick II to Charles V to Robespierre to Napoleon to Garibaldi to Mussolini to Hitler. The have all come and gone, but Rome endures, as it will now. As always, Time, that infallible Judge, will tell. I am deeply shocked by the latest scandals, which are far from uniquely found in the Catholic Church, but I am not at all anxious about the imperishable nature of the Church. Ignorant and demotic Irish politicians, obsessed with finding a new external scapegoat to replace the “evil Brits” and divert attention from their financial scandals, may bleat as they wish. They stupidly think that they are original or that the Holy See will be scared. They are ignorant of history. The Church will be purified and strengthened, when these opportunists and scoffers will have passed into oblivion.

  • Tiggy

    I suppose because its nowhere near destruction, and we are not yet at the end of time, as we know it.. The rest of your posting is mostly convoluted tosh.

  • Tiggy

    I suppose because its nowhere near destruction, and we are not yet at the end of time, as we know it.. The rest of your posting is mostly  convoluted tosh.

  • D B McGinnity

    Come along Tiggy, terms like ‘tosh’ are unworthy of any literate person and are in fact are used as an avoidance technique. Please supply a cogent discourse about where Jesus is (body and soul) and why he cannot come to earth and deal with pain and suffering. Where is Mary (body and soul?  Please answer !!

  • Tiggy

    I have no intention of making replying to you my lifes work. Which would be the case with any dissection of your very strange thoughts.So a precis.
     A.Jesus is in Heaven with his Heavenly Father.
     B.Mary is also in heaven, along with all thw Angels and Saints. Not just “named” Saints but all the faithfull, from all time.
     C. He has already been to the Earth and set up his Church here. The Catholic Church. Far from perfect but , hey , its full of humans.
     D. He will not return until a time appointed by God The Father. When, the Church shall be made perfect.
      This is just my view from the pew , if you like. I ll leave the theology to the Theologians.

  • Tiggy

    I have no intention of making replying to you my lifes work. Which would be the case with any dissection of your very strange thoughts.So a precis.
     A.Jesus is in Heaven with his Heavenly Father.
     B.Mary is also in heaven, along with all thw Angels and Saints. Not just “named” Saints but all the faithfull, from all time.
     C. He has already been to the Earth and set up his Church here. The Catholic Church. Far from perfect but , hey , its full of humans.
     D. He will not return until a time appointed by God The Father

  • Tiggy

    BTW, I am just an ordinary punter in a pew . You may need to speak to a theologian, which , clearly I AM NOT!!

  • D B McGinnity

    Thank you Tiggy. that was easy. I respect your truthful answer and your candour. Sadly,there are several zealot blogs who just invent answers and make it up as they go along and become offended and offensive because logical questions are asked. I am a Catholic and a Christian, but from my experience in Rome, the last place one would expect to find God or Jesus would be in the Vatican

  • Anonymous

    “Extra ecclesia nulla salus” – “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.  This is an infallibly declared part of the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.  The flock can debate as much as it likes, and it can reach whatever conclusions it likes, and it can use its collective free will to do as it likes, as we are seeing in the reformed Catholic Church post Vatican II, but the teaching of the Church is that to dissent from a single one of its infallibly declared doctrines is to put oneself outside the Church – and thereby beyond salvation.

    Let the South American clergy you instance go and join the Anglicans.  Let the bishops sign up to the heresy of Collegiality.  Let the faithful blindly follow their priests along the route of false ecumenism (another heresy).  Let the advocates of “all religions are equally valid – Christ died to save everyone” trumpet their heresies.  All who support these fashionable trends are in dissent, and all are thereby outside the Church, and all are denying themselves the opportunity of Salvation.

    Let these democratic fantasy followers vote for universal salvation – and then let us see what Christ’s response will be as they each arrive at the hour of their death and put their democratic decisions in the balance against what He expected of them.  Whether they were to take their leave from that private judgement via the “Heaven” door or the “Hell” door should be a very interesting albeit entirely predictable event to observe.

    I have made my choice.  To know God, to love Him, and to serve Him to the best of my ability in this world, and so to be happy with Him in the next in accordance with the teachings of the Church, and I urge you to set aside your worthless espousal of democracy (the will of the majority) and follow the example of those who, following the will of Christ, have already gone before you.

  • Mr Oginga

    OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS SALVATIONThe Salesian Fathers of Don Bosco taught my grandfather and my father the same inflexible message that you are teaching: DO AS WE SAY. Yes, that was fine for the black babies who lived in poverty and ignorance, and were kept in ignorance. The catholic church is in rapid decline in Africa and Islam and Pentecostal churches offer a more friendly message. When Pope Benedict was elected there was a message within the Vatican that on no account was there to be a black or dark skinned pope. The catholic church treated us like muck.

  • CM

    “to dissent from a single one of its infallibly declared doctrines is to put oneself outside the Church – and thereby beyond salvation.”

    Jesus said, “Those who are not against us are for us.” (Mark 9:40)

  • Tiggy

    If indeed you are as you say ” a Catholic And a Christian”( are those not synonymous??). Then all those things should be natural beliefs for you. Obvious if you like.

  • Anonymous

    Mr Oginga,

    You have written above: “OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS SALVATION“.  Is there a typing error or are you contradicting the Holy Ghost?

    The doctrine has been declared as infallible.  It says: “Outside the Church there is no salvation” and it means what it says.

    Islam and the Pentecostal churches may well offer a more friendly message – but will you get to Heaven by following it?  The only way to save your soul is by being a member of Christ’s flock, and to retain your membership you have to follow all the instructions He laid down.  If you dissent from them, i.e., protest against them, then your are by definition a Protestant and you have put yourself outside the Church.  Unless you take steps to correct that situation you will have to accept the consequences.

    There may be smoother, broader, easier routes on offer – but they all lead to Hell.

  • Anonymous

    It is easy to take statements out of context to suit a purpose.

    It is a Protestant trait to put individual intepretations on the contents of the Gospels.

    The infallibly-declared teachings of the Catholic Church are there to guard against individual interpretation.  You can use your free will and your intelligence to read what you want to see, but unless you want to fall into error, you would be well advised to accept what the Church teaches.

  • Mr Oginga

    I meant that salvation IS available outside the catholic church. I will not repeat, but the catholic priests dictated dogma and indoctrination and were inflexible, just like you. I had aspirations for better education, but they dissuaded my parents and said that I was to stay at home. But I did not obey the priest. I took ‘O’ and A levels by ICS correspondence at enormous expense, and paid for by a Elim Church Pastor. To my credit I graduated at the Sorbonne and I am now a Civil Engineer. I have repaid the pastor for his generosity. The Catholic Church did not like the natives to be too well educated, just in case they discovered that their church was a fraud. They were punitive and insulting and referred to us as ‘the poor things’. The power and rule of Rome is virtually done in Africa, Asia, South America and in Europe

  • Harper

    Wishful thinking. The Catholic Church continues to grow in these continents, while those who join evangelical sects end up in ever more fragmented “churches”, as the private interpretations of their members lead many to set up yet more breakaway churches, and so yet further fragmentation. The fact that you owe so much to the Elim Church, which originates in Ulster and who have exported their deadly bigotry and simplistic critiques of Catholicism elsewhere in the world, explains a great deal about the inspiration behind your opinions. There is no point in debating with such sects as their minds are closed.

  • H J McCracken

    I am an Ulster Man of good Presbyterian stock, and you insult the dignity and integrity of an nation. Catholics spout about the propagation of the faith and soldiers of Christ etc., but you now you declare that it would be useless for you to debate anything with this erudite African gentleman.Your behaviour supports his premise that he and his kind (and my kind) are unworthy of your consideration. What if St Augustine and Saint Patrick had taken that approach? It is clear that you are racist against black people and bigoted against the other church’s of Jesus Christ. You insult Ulster without understanding the boundaries of Ulster. Many Irish Catholic people are presently considering the prospect of a United Ireland within the United Kingdom, and of embracing religions other than Catholicism. The Vatican has much to worry about.

  • Tiggy

    You clearly have Issues. But your picture is very far from a common one.

  • Tiggy

    I lived in Ireland( South) for 25 years and still go there regularly. While I know many who no longer attend the Mass regularly. It would be a cold day in hell before they embraced any of the man-made forms of Christianity. They have issues with The Catholic Church, but when push comes to shove, most still know it is the original, for all its flaws.

  • Dr PJ McFall

    Up until 2007 I would have heartily agreed with you, but much has changed. I banked my money in Ireland and had considerable stock there. One day I was visiting some friends in Molesworth Street in Dublin near the Dail. A friend indicated that I should ‘get out’ now. I sold all shares and withdrew all money that very day. It is just as well that I did. I told some of my trusted friends to do likewise, but they laughed at me and called me a “Sassenach”. It is a sad story that some of these people are virtually destitute and will never recover their financial loss. The point I make is that people have lost their faith in God, Jesus, The Catholic Religion etc., and would join anything including Islam (which some are doing). The leaders who let them down and moved (the peoples money) into their own personal off-shore bank accounts, were Catholics.Is the Pope selling off Vatican art treasures to compensate the poor? No, he is not ! I think that your confidence about the “gates of hell not prevailing ” is mistaken. I do not take any pleasure in the downfall of the Irish Banks, but these same people also belonged to the Catholic Masonic right wing “The Knights of Columbanus”, as did many of the Fianna Fail Government. Therefore the Catholic Church were deeply involved in corrupt practices, and the people know it. Gladly, I am in a position to know that this is true. It will not bother me one little bit when Ratbag et.al. retort with insults and malevolence.

  • Bornagain

    I find it interesting the number of people who calls themselves ‘Catholic.’ I say ‘call themselves’ since the opinions of what the Church is or is not is unlimited. These people open their mouths and immediately, whether knowingly or not are viewed as representatives of the Church Jesus started. Their views range from the Pope cannot tell them what to do to the Church is being abandoned by Catholics. Jesus said ‘The only way to the Father is through me.’ Everyone has the choice to receive or reject this. The danger lies in the fact that if it is true, judgement day will be a huge gamble for many who ignore this.

    In Matthew 25:31, Jesus comes to take the sheep with Him to heaven. The sheep fed, clothed, watered, visited and cared for others. Knowledge of history, number of rosaries prayed, how many bazaar’s you participated in, how much you read the bible, the number of Masses you attended, singing in the choir, were not mentioned.

    God is in charge. His plan IS HIs plan. Man cannot derail what God has willed. Too much energy is wasted in matters that detract from our mission. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Nothing else counts toward heaven.

    Bornagain

  • CM

    It is no more out of context than your quotation of Church doctrine. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ, “I am the way the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father, except through me.’

    The Church also says: “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the
    same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all
    the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal
    mystery.” (Gaudium et Spes 22)
     God is not confined to the rule of man, nor restrained by the doctrines of the Church. Thank fully, the Holy Spirit blows where He wills and those who think that simply being Roman Catholics assures them of a place in heaven have really missed the poiunt!

  • Mark Castilano

    You are more likely to go to hell because you are a Catholic than anything else. I have eleven text books about the popes. Written by Catholics, Jews protestants and Atheists. They have one thing in common, that most of the history of the vatican was corrupt. Even this century is filled with mendacity and murder.

    It is topical that Bishop Magee of Cloyne was the last person (other than the nurse) to see him alive. Maybe he is innocent, but in view of the cover-up of child abuse in Cloyne, only God knows what else he did.

    People are not fools and the varacity of the Vatican is under the microscope, and some pathological bugs will be identified there.

  • Mark Castilano

    You are more likely to go to hell because you are a Catholic than anything else. I have eleven text books about the popes. Written by Catholics, Jews protestants and Atheists. They have one thing in common, that most of the history of the vatican was corrupt. Even this century is filled with mendacity and murder.It is topical that Bishop Magee of Cloyne was the last person (other than the nurse) to see Pope John Paul I alive. Maybe he is innocent, but in view of the cover-up of child abuse in Cloyne, only God knows what else he did. People are not fools and the varacity of the Vatican is under the microscope, and some pathological bugs will be identified there.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Kenny/500505255 Michael Kenny

    This just needs to be sorted out. There is not meant to be a hint of abuse in the Church at all. I am so tired of being angry about this all the time, it’s so frustrating.

    In the real world the moment an accusation is made policies are implemented. It’s normal, it’s not something strange.

    The primary purpose of the Church is to preach, constantly be converting itself and others and maintaining a sacramental economy… isn’t it?

    I’ve done mission work in the UK with under 30s for 2 years and have to say that this issue is constantly brought up and has turned off most young people from making a commitment to the institutional church —

    It is annoying… because it is undermining the Gospel message – which is sort of what we’re meant to be about?

    Anyway hopefully it will be sorted out, I don’t care how or who by – 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Kenny/500505255 Michael Kenny

    So salvation isn’t in Christ?

    It’s something people really struggle with, isn’t it? 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Kenny/500505255 Michael Kenny

    So salvation isn’t in Christ?

    It’s something people really struggle with, isn’t it? 

  • Tiggy

    crap

  • Anonymous

    The quote you make from Gaudium et Spes is one of those ambiguous statements that Vatican II has become so infamous for. In fact, while it is true that the Holy Spirit offers all the possibility of being saved, the Church teaches, as does Our Lord in the Gospels, that few accept the invitation: “Wide and easy,” said Our Lord, “is the road that leads to perdition, and many there are who follow it.” Hard and narrow is the way that leads to eternal life, and few there are who tread it.” Ok, the wording isn’t absolutely verbatim from the Gospels, but the meaning is clear.

    As for God not being confined by the rule of man, it is God’s rule that the Church and Catholics follow. The infallible dogma ‘extra ecclesiam nulla salus’ (outside the Church no salvation) is the rule of God, not man. Hence, as Pius IX says: “They will perish forever who do not die embracing the Catholic Faith whole and entire.”

    What you mean about the Spirit blowing where He wills refers more perhaps to the Church’s teaching about those who are saved through invincible ignorance. These are souls who will have no opportunity to know the true religion, but who nevertheless live their lives in union with the spirit of Catholicism.

    Remember the old Catholic truth: One may be saved in his false religion, but not by his false religion. Everyone has a duty to seek out the truth concerning God and the Church He has founded for the salvation of souls. It is certain, then, according to infallible Church teaching that a majority of those who die in their false beliefs will perish for eternity, unless prevented from seeking the truth by some extraordinary means. Hard to make a case for most non-Catholics in these days of instant communication!

  • Dr PJ McFall

    I deprecate your use of the word crap because it is synonym for excrement. Is your vocabulary so limited that you must resort to lavatory vulgarity, whilst at the same time pretending to maintain ethical ideals of decency and decorum . You could have stated that you disagree with my premise because, but you choose to devalue the ethos of the Roman Catholic Church. Throughout these blogs there is a tendency for the poorly educated and the immoderate to retort with facile and intemperate rhetoric. These blogs, shown collectively portray a picture of very superficial and banal reasoning which is the main characteristic of Roman Catholicism

  • Harper

    Henry Joy: What is bad Presbyterian stock like? Don’t try to pull a bogus charge of racism, particularly in a part of the world where British colonial expansion was so evident in the Plantation of Ulster and the expropriation of the native Irish and where that province has become a byword for bigotry. The opinion put forward by Mr Oginga has nothing to do with race but everything to do with Elim-style bigotry, in which utterly facile caricatures of Catholicism are set up to be knocked down by simplistic Protestant polemic. Many Protestant churches are bigoted against each other, which is why they break away so frequently from each other and refuse to be reconciled with each other. The problem with your and Mr Oginga’s view is that you have a flawed interpretation of authority which in turn is rooted in a false understanding of the Church. Contrary to what many evangelicals feel, the Bible grew out of the Church, not the other way around. The Church, that is the body of believers, existed for many decades before the New Testament evolved. The New Testament did not arrive intact by airmail; it grew out of the experience of the Church with the authority of the Church. It was the leaders of the Church, not the rank and file, who decided which books should be regarded as revelation and which should not. Where does your and Mr Oginga’s Bible come from and how do you know it is authentic. Mr Oginga might trace it back to 1915, when the Elim Pentecostal Church was founded in Monaghan. He might then demonstrate that the founder of the Elim PC was a Welsh Congregationalist and show that they had used the Bible as far back as the seventeenth century. But before that, how would he prove its authenticity? You might show that the Bible was used by Presbyterians since the sixteenth century. And before that? You would have to resort to the Catholic Church in order to show that your Bible is authentic, since there were no Presbyterians or Congregationalists or Elim Pentecostals before that time. 

    It is the Catholic Church which moulded and compiled the New Testament out of its experience; it is the Catholic Church which preserved it; It is the Catholic Church which preserves it. If you think that the Irish Catholic population in general is about to apostasise, you can join the legions of evangelicals down the centuries who have forecast the imminent downfall of Romanism. As for the boundaries of Ulster, my ancestors lived in Ulster for a thousand years before the arrival of Scottish Lowlanders in the area. I am surprised you are not too busy with the forthcoming Glasgow march of the Royal Black Preceptory, those pillars of enlightenment and ecumenical dialogue, to engage with Romanists in a Romish paper.

  • Dr PJ McFall

    What you have written is opinion and facile comment and adds nothing new. It is like a lengthy witness deposition in in court, but says nothing. There are over 5000 protestant churches that I know about (maybe more). This is a good thing because the Baptists in Kentucky might have different sociological and social mores that those in Arkansas. The values in Monaghan might be different to those in Cork. The Catholic Church tried to impose the values of Co. Tipperary to remote villages in Kenya. Protestant churches do not have this “one, holy and apostolic” concept, because the church IS the local community (the people) and not the Vatican (The Pope). There is absolutely no difference between the Anglican Mass and the Roman Catholic Mass. The vestments are the same, the prayers, hymns, readings, gospel and the creed, the communion are the same. The blessing is the same. The one and only difference is that they do not accept the authority of the pope. The protestant church’s put the people, and the people’s needs first and not some old man in a big hat living hundreds or thousands on miles away.

  • Dr PJ McFall

    What you have written is opinion and facile comment and adds nothing new. It is like a lengthy witness deposition in in court, but says nothing. There are over 5000 protestant churches that I know about (maybe more). This is a good thing because the Baptists in Kentucky might have different sociological and social mores that those in Arkansas. The values in Monaghan might be different to those in Cork. The Catholic Church tried to impose the values of Co. Tipperary to remote villages in Kenya. Protestant churches do not have this “one, holy and apostolic” concept, because the church IS the local community (the people) and not the Vatican (The Pope). There is absolutely no difference between the Anglican Mass and the Roman Catholic Mass. The vestments are the same, the prayers, hymns, readings, gospel and the creed, the communion are the same. The blessing is the same. The one and only difference is that they do not accept the authority of the pope. The protestant church’s put the people, and the people’s needs first and not some old man in a big hat living hundreds or thousands on miles away.

  • Harper

    For one so critical of opinion and facile comment, judging by the latest contribution, you seem to embody both in spades.

  • Dr PJ McFall

    This answer is an impertinent childlike retort, not a cogent reasoned response. So many of the bloggers do this. Last week when someone was said to be unsophisticated, they responded angrily with “I do not do sophistication” . Imagine, this person acknowledging on a blog that they were without social decorum, social skills or sense of etiquette. This trend of responding with rude, intemperate, defensive snappy retorts is ubiquitous throughout these Catholic blogs. Miss Ann Widdecombe acknowledged that when decided to become a Catholic she was teased by her friends for joining a religion that was suitable for Chambermaids, Italian waiters and Irish navies. Judging by the Catholic Herald blogs there is some truth in this. Pejorative terms like ‘crap’ and other saloon bar room repartee are used frequently. This is a paradox because Catholicism purports to be the stuff of “Gentle Jesus” Christian charity, “God is Love” etc., etc. It stands out that many Catholics have only a superficial indoctrinated concrete view of living, and they live in fear of hell. When presented with a different point of view than their own, they become angry, frustrated and offensive. One blogger has used the term ‘WRONG” over 500 times, but did not supply a coherent or convincing response as to why the other point of view was WRONG.If someone wishes to retort with: RUBBISH, that is fine by me.

  • Cromwell Uguale

    Very trite indeed. You made mention of Mr Oginga in your discussion, and now you accuse the Doctor of having it is “Spades”. Mr Sigmund Freud may have been right after all.

  • Harper

    Cromwell well named. I not sure what point you are trying to make, but if it is what I think it may be, you are very wide of the mark.

  • Harper

    There is no point in engaging with bigots, for it is an utter waste of time. Your quotation – with approval – of an ignorant criticism of Ann Widdecombe’s conversion further reveals you to be a social snob, even if this snobbery is misplaced. You have a caricatured view of Catholicism. I don’t know what subject your doctorate is in. It may even come – like Dr Paisley’s – from the Bob Jones University. You certainly deserve an honorary one: in Invincible Ignorance. P J McFall D.Ignor.Invinc. sounds just about right. That’s enough time wasted.

  • Cromwell Uguale

    So now you compound the insult and dishonour my father and his family by allusion that we are like Oliver Cromwell. I have just checked with a barrister friend in the Inns of Court. You have made a pejorative insinuation about me and my family name This implication reinforces Dr McFall’s premise that there is anger, rage and hostility, just below the surface in many Catholics and that any thought of gentleness or compassion is just a veneer. Look, You want to dominate the world, Well, you can’t, so there!!

  • Harper

    S/he mustn’t be much of a barrister. I simply said you were well named – why/how is this an insult – and I might have been referring to OC’s kinsman, Thomas Cromwell, hero of a recent novel – but it is you were the one attempting to insinuate with your reference to Freud. Meanwhile I’d find a better barrister. They must let anyone into the Inns of Court these days.

  • Harper

    S/he mustn’t be much of a barrister. I simply said you were well named – why/how is this an insult – and I might have been referring to OC’s kinsman, Thomas Cromwell, hero of a recent novel – but it is you were the one attempting to insinuate with your reference to Freud. Meanwhile I’d find a better barrister. They must let anyone into the Inns of Court these days.

  • Dr PJ McFall

    Do you realise what you have just done? You have publicly impugned the integrity of Lord Paisley from the British House of Lords and the Integrity and veracity of The Bob Jones University. You claim that their Academic degrees are questionable. You also mock my academic attainments that requires no vindication, only to say that it will withstand scrutiny. Do not be surprised if the legal department of The Bob Jones University are in touch with you sooner rather than later. Lord Paisley would be too much of a gentleman to be bothered with someone who act before he thinks. This is known as stupidity.

  • Cromwell Uguale

    Well, you are doing better by the minute. I am a barrister in the Inns of Court. LL.B (Cantab) No it does not wash, When all your other blogs are judged collectively and your recent reference to Lord Paisley and the Bob Jones University together with all the other invective blogs you have issued to others there will be no difficulty in assessing exactly what you meant.

  • Harper

    “I don’t know what subject your doctorate is in. It may even come – like Dr Paisley’s – from the Bob Jones University.” How does this statement impugn Lord Paisley’s integrity or your attainments, unless you think being associated with such an institution is somehow an insult? I did suggest an honorary doctorate but didn’t suggest that this be awarded by the Bob Jones University as I don’t think they offer a named degree of that kind. Doubtless one could be found. Meanwhile I’ll await the Legal Department’s contact with due fear and enormous trepidation! That’s enough waste of time, against my better judgement.

  • Harper

    Haha! You are not for real!  So you are a barrister who checks with a barrister? Have you checked out the Bob Jones University attitude to racial segregation? It has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the world of racial equality. As for its recent earth creation science! Very funny indeed!

  • Guy Picardie

    Monsieur Harper It is most clear that you are bothered my much angst. I strongly recommend that you take time out from the troubles of life. Clearly you have suffered the ‘slings and arrows’ of daily strife and your psychological ‘battle scars’ are evident in the fearfulness of your rejoinder. May I suggest that you enter The Grande Chartreuse Monastery of Saint-Pierre-de Chartreuse of the Carthusian Order in the Chartreuse Mountains near Grenoble, France. It is near to where I was brought up and it is so tranquil. There you will discover the origins of your suffering and woes and come to terms with your adversity. No one has the right to tease you for your lack of education and racism. Jesus never had a University education. Take heart because many saints like Saint Joseph Cupertino who was like you and suffered from abysmal ignorance, and they are still remembered.Get the DVD about The Grande Chartreuse Monastery “Into Great Silence” by Philip Gröning