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Each SSPX bishop must make his own commitment to unity, says Vatican spokesman

By on Wednesday, 16 May 2012

Bishop Bernard Fellay (CNS photo)

Bishop Bernard Fellay (CNS photo)

Reconciliation talks between the Vatican and the Society of St Pius X have not reached their conclusion but will continue, the Vatican has said, after members of its doctrinal congregation examined the latest communication from the head of the breakaway traditionalist group.

“Some observations were formulated which will be kept in mind in further discussions,” said Fr Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, following a meeting of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Those observations regarded the SSPX’s official response to a “doctrinal preamble”, prepared by the Vatican in September, outlining “some doctrinal principles and criteria for the interpretation of Catholic doctrine necessary to guarantee fidelity” to the formal teaching of the Church, including the teaching of the Second Vatican Council.

The response was submitted in April by Bishop Bernard Fellay, the society’s superior general. While Bishop Fellay has been generally positive about the possibility of reconciliation with Rome, leaked letters show that the society’s three other bishops have had serious reservations about the process.

“In consideration of the positions taken by the three other bishops of the Society of St Pius, their situation will have to be treated separately and individually,” Fr Lombardi said in a statement.

In addition to the hesitancy of the three bishops to support fully Bishop Fellay’s efforts, Fr Lombardi said, Bishop Richard Williamson’s public denials of the Holocaust and anti-Semitic statements would also require discussions separate from those of reconciliation with the SSPX as a whole.

“It is not that this is a process that necessarily will reach a solution that embraces all the positions” found among all the SSPX members, Fr Lombardi said.

Even if the SSPX as a whole is reconciled with Rome, he said, “the individual bishops each must make a commitment” to full communion with Rome. “It’s not as if there will be one solution that automatically extends to all.”

Many observers of the process had expected the May 16 doctrinal congregation meeting to mark the penultimate step in the reconciliation talks. It appeared that congregation members would review Bishop Fellay’s response and forward their opinions about it to Pope Benedict XVI for his final action.

Fr Lombardi, however, said officials at the doctrinal congregation informed the Pope of the results of the day’s meeting but did not believe the reconciliation process was nearing its end.

“Obviously, the decision is in the Pope’s hands” and he can act when and how he wants, “but despite how it may have seemed – that we were talking about a brief amount of time – it is a process that continues,” Fr Lombardi said.

“It would be premature to guess when the process will end,” he added.

Pope Benedict’s latest efforts to bring about reconciliation with the traditionalist group began when he lifted the excommunications imposed on Bishop Fellay and other SSPX bishops after they were ordained without papal permission. The Pope also established a Vatican committee for doctrinal talks with society representatives in 2009, and drafted the “doctrinal preamble” to explain the “minimal, essential” elements on which the society would have to agree for full reconciliation, Fr Lombardi had said.

  • Benedict Carter

    The Vatican is right to expect such a commitment from the four Bishops individually. And Bishop Williamson, if only not to be an embarrassment, needs to retract his Holocaust denial stuff (at his age he would only be a Bishop in full communion for a year or two anyway). 

    But “observations” is a word that suggests no great obstacles remain, in principle. Deo gratias! 

    The process remaining I am sure relates to Bishop Fellay’s internal tasks: the Vatican is giving him some time to address them. 

  • Charles Martel

     That seems right to me, Benedict. Even though they don’t count for anything in the hierarchy of the SSPX, they are, after all, bishops, and the Church has to work out what to do with them.

  • Tim

    “In consideration of the positions taken by the three other bishops of the Society of St Pius, their situation will have to be treated separately and individually,” Fr Lombardi said in a statement.

    I agree that each Bishop must be treated individually, but I just hope this is not an attempt to divide and rule by the Vatican. Should the Vatican really be commenting on  leaked correspondence between the 3 Bishops and Fellay. How can that be helpful?
     

  • Benedict Carter

    Bishops have to be dealt with individually. They touch power buttons that a priest does not: they can not only ordain priests but consecrate other Bishops.

  • Louis Tofari

    It should be noted that these are Fr. Lombardi’s comments, not Pope Benedict XVI’s – and often the CDF is trying to hinder what the pope actually wants in regards to the SSPX-Rome discussions as reported by several sources.

  • WILLIAM BAUER

    Notice how the Politically Correct method of speaking ambles into headlines, even when there is no doubt each SSPX bishop is a man. Thus the old and less confusing way of stating the obvious is that each SSPX bishop mus make HIS own commitment to unity.

  • Arthur Scroggins

    Since when does a political or historical view become so important that it constitutes a block?
    Since when did a secular law (since when does truth need to be defended by law?) about a historical opinion restrict Christians? Think about what you are saying. If Bp W views on this are to be suppressed, what will the next secular sacred cow be? Isn’t free speech important?

    Best check all of their opinions on 9-11, the moon landing, weapons of mass destruction, UFO’s, evolution, and anything else that non-Catholics might take offence to, and make sure that the UN (Paul VI – last hope of concord and peace) approves of us!

    Unity is founded in truth, not in suppressing debatable historical opinion.
    Q What is truth?
    A. Jesus!

  • Parasum

    “Each SSPX bishop must make their own commitment to unity, says Vatican spokesman”

    ## That sounds like a way of saying “Your move”.

    “In addition to the hesitancy of the three bishops to support fully Bishop Fellay’s efforts, Fr Lombardi said, Bishop Richard Williamson’s public denials of the Holocaust and anti-Semitic statements would also require discussions separate from those of reconciliation with the SSPX as a whole.”

    ## The Shoah is not & cannot be a *doctrinal* issue. And it was nothing to do with the events of June 30 1988. His utterances about it may be *distasteful, or inaccurate, or prejudiced, or indefensible, or a lot of unpleasant or regrettable things – but how can they prevent communion with the Church ? “[A]nti-Semitic statements” is a phrase that might mean any number of things, from saying that Jews (or Palestinians !) are subhuman scum fit only to be exterminated, to denying that Zionism is a good thing, or maintaining supersessionism.

    “Even if the SSPX as a whole is reconciled with Rome, he said, “the individual bishops each must make a commitment” to full communion with Rome.”

    ## That could do with being explained.

  • No more NO!

    It is obvious that a great amount of misinformation has been deliberately circulated about the Vatican Council.  Some Sedes say that there has not been a “true” Pope since Pius XII.  They say that Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI were “heretics”  To make such a statement infers that Christ did not inspire them in truth.

    However, Fr Gommar depauw, a Traditionalist Priest, and former Professor of Canon Law and Dean of Admissions at Mount Saint Mary’s Seminary was a trusted friend of Pope Paul VI; and Fr Depauw states that, on the contrary, Blessed John XXIII was so fearful that the Latin idiom was endangered by Modernists , that he prayed over the tomb of St. Peter that it would be protected.  So much for a “liberal ” John XXIII.  People seem to not be aware that the only Mass discussed by the second Vatican Council II was the Tridentine Mass. (Performed by the FSSP, SPPX and some others faithful to the wishes of the present Holy Father Pope Benedict.

    Pope Paul VI, according to Fr depauw  was not liberal either.  Fr depaw states that Paul VI was horrified at the suggestion by the American Bishops that the Novus Ordo should be translated into the Vernacular.  Fr Depauw states that Paul VI’s response was  “No, No, NO!”  when the American Bishops made the suggestion to him.  Fr depauw recalls that from the Holy Father’s own lips he heard that the Bishops had disobeyed his command, and gone ahead and  translated it anyway.  Fr depauw’s 1967 Chicago Lecture “Catholic or Conciliar” which contains all of this information can be read here. http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/depauw67.txt   I believe it is also available as an audio on Youtube.

    Michael Voris does not mention the willful disobedience of the Bishops against Pope Paul VI on his “CIA Weapons of MASS Destruction” investigations( www. RealCatholicTv.com and on “Youtube”)  but he DOES mention that Pope John XXIII fired Cardinal Annibale Bugnini suddenly – removing him from ALL positions of authority, –  and without apparent explanation.  Bugnini therefore should not have had any influence at the Council, but, Blessed John XXIII then died, and Pope Paul VI, for misguided reasons, reinstated Bugnini. Who then was free to try to revise the Liturgy.

    Isn’t it  law within the Church that if a Pope dies during a Council, that the Council should be stopped?  Why was it reopened? Evidently, in early Church History, there is record of a Pope who used the position to attempt to alter a dogmatic constitution of the Church, but, rather mysteriously died from natural causes during the night before it could be initiated.  Cast iron proof that the Holy Trinity protects the Church and will not let the Papacy itself fall into error.

    I have discovered many accounts online that state that Paul VI was tricked by Cardinal Bugnini  into permitting the liturgical reforms that were made.  

     Fr. Louis Bouyer, a member of the Commission charged with the Liturgical Reform stated.

    ” I wrote to the Holy Father, Pope Paul VI, to tender my resignation as member of the Commission charged with the Liturgical Reform. The Holy Father sent for me at once (and the following conversation ensued):Paul VI: Father, you are an unquestionable and unquestioned authority by your deep knowledge of the Church’s liturgy and Tradition, and a specialist in this field. I do not understand why you have sent me your resignation, whilst your presence, is more than precious, it is indispensable!Father Bouyer: Most Holy Father, if I am a specialist in this field, I tell you very simply that I resign because I do not agree with the reforms you are imposing! Why do you take no notice of the remarks we send you, and why do you do the opposite?Paul VI: But I don’t understand: I’m not imposing anything. I have never imposed anything in this field. I have complete trust in your competence and your propositions. It is you who are sending me proposals. When Fr. Bugnini comes to see me, he says: “Here is what the experts are asking for.” And as you are an expert in this matter, I accept your judgement.Father Bouyer: “And meanwhile, when we have studied a question, and have chosen what we can propose to you, in conscience, Father Bugnini took our text, and, then said to us that, having consulted you: “The Holy Father wants you to introduce these changes into the liturgy.” And since I don’t agree with your propositions, because they break with the Tradition of the Church, then I tender my resignation.Paul VI: But not at all, Father, believe me, Father Bugnini tells me exactly the contrary: I have never refused a single one of your proposals. Father Bugnini came to find me and said: “The experts of the Commission charged with the Liturgical Reform asked for this and that”. And since I am not a liturgical specialist, I tell you again, I have always accepted your judgement. I never said that to Monsignor Bugnini. I was deceived. Father Bugnini deceived me and deceived you.Father Bouyer: That is, my dear friends, how the liturgical reform was done!”http://monkshobbit.wordpress.com/2009/10/20/fr-louis-bouyer-how-cardinal-annibale-bugnini-deceived-pope-paul-vi-on-the-new-mass/ It has also been stated that Pope Paul VI signed off the changes without being aware he was doing so.  From the Blog of Fr Zome years ago I was told this story by an elderly, retired Papal Ceremoniere or a Master of Ceremonies who (according to him) was present at the event about to be recounted.You probably know that in the traditional Roman liturgical calendar the mighty feast of Pentecost had its own Octave.  Pentecost was a grand affair indeed, liturgically speaking.  In some places in the world such as Germany and Austria Pentecost Monday, Whit Monday as the English call it, was a reason to have a civil holiday, as well as a religious observance.The Monday after Pentecost in 1970 His Holiness Pope Paul VI rose bright and early and went to the chapel for Holy Mass. Instead of the red he expected, there were green vestments laid out for him. He queried the MC assigned that day, “What on earth are these for?  This is the Octave of Pentecost!  Where are the red vestments?””Santità,” quoth the MC, “this is now Tempus ‘per annum’.  It is green, now. The Octave of Pentecost is abolished.””Green? That cannot be!”, said the Pope, “Who did that?””Holiness, you did.”And Paul VI wept.”http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/05/a-pentecost-monday-lesson-and-paul-vi-wept/ It is quite obvious that an awful lot of subterfuge has been at play, and although I myself have remained within the Church, I believe that the SPPX practice authentic Catholicism and any who say otherwise do not have a CLUE as to what the Catholic Church really is and what it has been for 2000 years.  The reason I have not left even though I live in an area where no Tridentine Masses are available is because throughout Church History, the Church has always reformed itself from the actions of those WITHIN it, while nothing but schism has resulted from people seeking to reform her from OUTSIDE .  It’s a case of United we stand, divided we fall…. Novelties are damaging the Church, in such situations it is best to remember just WHAT the Traditions are and to return to them.  That is the safest option for our souls and the souls of others.

  • http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/ The Catholic Herald

    Thank you – that is a good point. The headline has been amended.

  • Nat_ons

    The division between Rome, New Rome (Constantinople) and Third Rome (Moscow) is a trial of political life rather than of insoluble theology. As with the SSPX and the Holy Father, a puritan stance is once taken over an ideological issue (filioque, aggiornamento, even ownership) and an intransigent bureaucratic response is the unhelpful answer. Hence schism turns into accusations over heresy or apostasy or excommunication; the situation with the less Sede Vacantist form of dissent (toward the positive light shone by the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council on the usually negatively formulated truths of Sacred Tradition .. and the Age Of Aquarius mayhem that surrounded this) is not so far gone as New or Third Rome – sadly, the Sede Vacantist spirit (even within SSPX) has outstripped even Moscow in vitriolic and political denials of papal Rome.

  • Caroline

    Look at this!  How can anyone ignore it!

    Prophecy about the Novus Ordo Mass (1902)

    Marie Julie Jahenny Victim Soul, Stigmatic, scientifcally and medically observed and examined.  She lived for several years on just the Holy Eucharist.  St Padre Pio called her “That humble Violet”  She was also very respected by Pope Pius XII who visited her, along with up to  40 Bishops and many Priests and laity.  She lived in a village called La Fraudais (19th century, France)

    “On November 27, 1902 and May 10, 1904, Our Lord and Our Lady announced the conspiracy to invent the “New Mass”:

    “I give you a WARNING. The disciples who are not of My Gospel are now working hard to remake according to their ideas and under the influence of the enemy of souls a MASS that contains words that are ODIOUS in My sight. When the fatal hour arrives when the faith of my priests is put to the test, it will be (these texts) that will be celebrated in this SECOND period… The FIRST period is (the one) of my priesthood which exists since Me. The SECOND is (the one) of the persecution when the ENEMIES of the Faith and of Holy Religion (will impose their formulas) in the book of the second celebration.. These infamous spirits are those who crucified me and are awaiting Tthe kingdom of THE NEW MESSIAH.”

    She had a vision of a dialogue between Our Lord and Lucifer and the latter said :

    “I will attack the Church. I will overthrow the Cross, I will decimate the people, I will deposit a great weakness of Faith in hearts. There will also be A GREAT DENIAL OF RELIGION. For a time I will be MASTER of all things, everything will be under MY CONTROL, even Your temple and all Your people.”

    “Saint Michael says that Satan will have possession of everything for some time and that he will reign completely over everything ; that all goodness, Faith, Religion will be buried in the tomb. . . Satan and his own will triumph with joy, but after this triumph, the Lord will in His turn gather His own people and will REIGN and TRIUMPH OVER EVIL and WILL RAISE UP from the tomb the buried Church, the prostrated Cross. . . ”

    Marie-Julie saw that “there will not remain any vestige of the Holy Sacrifice, no apparent trace of faith. CONFUSION will be everywhere…”

    “All the works approved by the infallible Church will cease to exist as they are today for a time. In this sorrowful annihilation, brilliant signs will be manifested on earth. If because of the wickedness of men Holy Church will be in darkness, the Lord will also send darkness that will stop the wicked in their search of wickedness. . . ”

    Along with many, many other Stigmatics and other Saints,e:g St Padre Pio, St Anne Catherine Emmerich, St Anna Maria Taigi, Blsd Elizabeth Cannon-Mora etc…. Marie Julie was given a prophecy about “3 Days of Darkness” that would one day come over the world.  All these Catholic Saints lived at different periods, and naturally had no access to the other Saints Prophecies (Most of them are recently Canonised APART from Marie Julie – who appears to have slipped into obscurity – there is a lengthy account of her life on the DVD “The Eldest Daughter of the Church” available here  ttp://www.marysmedia.org/birdfilms.html
    but other than that she is ignored by the modern Church which is ridiculous as she was extremely respected by both St Pio AND His Holiness Pope Pius XII

    “Marie-Julie announced the three days of darkness during which the infernal powers will be loosed and will execute all the enemies of God. “The crisis will explode suddenly; the punishments will be shared by all and will succeed one another without interruption… ” 
    ( January 4, 1884).

    “The three days of darkness “… will be on a THURSDAY, FRIDAY AND SATURDAY. Days of the Most Holy Sacrament, of the Cross and Our Lady. . . .” three days less one night.”

    “The earth will be covered in darkness»”, says Our Lady on 20th of September 1882, “…AND HELL WILL BE LOOSED ON EARTH. Thunder and lightning will cause those who have no faith or trust in My Power, to die of fear.”

    “During these three days of terrifying darkness, no windows must be opened, because no one will be able to see the earth and the terrible colour it will have in those days of punishment without dying at once… ”

    “The sky will be on fire, the earth will split… During these three days of darkness let the blessed candle be lighted everywhere, no other light will shine…. ”

    “NO ONE OUTSIDE A SHELTER.. will survive. The earth will shake as at the judgement and fear will be great. Yes, We will listen to the prayers of your friends ; NOT ONE WILL PERISH. We will need them to publish the glory of the Cross…. “(8th of December 1882) 

    ” THE CANDLES OF BLESSED WAX ALONE WILL GIVE LIGHT during this horrible darkness. ONE CANDLE alone will be enough for the duration of this night of hell… In the homes of the wicked and blasphemers these candles will give NO LIGHT.”

    “And Our Lady states : “Everything will shake except the piece of furniture on which the blessed candle is burning. This will not shake. You will all gather around with the crucifix and my blessed picture. This is what will keep away this terror.”

    “During this darkness the devils and the wicked will take on THE MOST HIDEOUS SHAPES… red clouds like blood will move across the sky. The crash of the thunder will shake the earth and sinister lightning will streak the heavens out of season. The earth will be shaken to its foundations. The sea will rise, its roaring waves will spread over the continent…”

    “THE EARTH WILL BECOME LIKE A VAST CEMETERY». The bodies of the wicked and the just will cover the ground.”

    “Three-quarters of the population of the globe will disappear. Half the population of France will be destroyed.” (Marquis de la Franquerie, Marie-Julie Jahenny) ”

    http://www.circleofprayer.com/Marie-Julie-Jahenny-visions.html

  • https://openid.org/locutus LocutusOP

    Regarding “Bishop Richard Williamson’s public denials of the Holocaust and anti-Semitic statements”..

    I am not aware of any anti-Semitic statement she has made apart from stating that he believed the number of Jews killed was much smaller than the one commonly given. Given his loose-canon approach to things, it would not surprise me if he had uttered racist statements, but I would be keen for someone to enlighten me on this.

    As for his public ‘denials’ of the Holocaust….Does the Church have a book on history to which all Catholics must adhere? Would it also include other centuries? I was not aware that acknowledging any historical events had become a mandatory tenant of the faith.

    Only if he claimed that it is acceptable to kill people because of their ethnicity would that be a doctrinal hindrance.

  • JabbaPapa

    First, such warnings are provided to us concerning dangers that we can prevent, with our Faith, and in the exercise of our Holy Free Will and our Charisms and our Prayer.

    Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
    Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
    ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
    nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

    Second, the Plans of God are not Revealed to our Mortal Spirits.

    Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
    Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
    ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
    nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

    Third, blessed are you, for you are of the Church of the Baptised.

    Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
    Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
    ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
    nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

    Fourth, blessed are those who keep their Faith and do not despair.

    Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
    Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
    ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
    nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

    Fifth, the Enemy is Weak. I have seen him and his strength is an emptiness of lies, which is as NOTHING before the Revelation of our Almighty Lord, Christed of the Father in the Spirit.

    Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
    Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
    ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
    nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

    Sixth, blessed are all the Saints, all Living, all Dead, for the Saints in God ARE our Church.

    Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
    Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
    ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
    nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

    Seventh, blessed are all those who love.

    Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
    Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
    ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
    nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

    Eighth, blessed are all those who protect the Faith.

    Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
    Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
    ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
    nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

    Ninth, Blessed is the Almighty God, to Whom we owe All Thanks, and Blessings, and Lives, our Love, and Mercy, and Grace, and most of all for His Holy Son our Christ, His Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Mother of our Saviour is full of grace, the Lord is with her. Blessed is she among women, and blessed is the fruit of her womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death. Amen.

  • Benedict Carter

    Arthur, both your and Parasum’s post above have made me reflect.

    I agree that the Shoah is not a criterion for whether Bishop Williamson’s Catholic Faith should be acceptable to the Vatican or not. 

    The trouble is, with the Church’s fawning to the Jews over the last fifty years and with the Jewish lobby coming down with a ton of bricks on anyone they remotely perceive as anti-semitic, his (very stupid) comments to that Swedish journalist a few years ago have to be taken into account.

    I spent a day at Auschwitz I and II a few years ago. Terrible place.  

  • Benedict Carter

    Excellent posts Caroline.

  • Caroline

    Thank you Benedict

    Have you heard about Fr. Michael Rodriguez ?  Michael Voris did a segment about how he had been removed from his Parish “El Paso, Texas” and transferred 250km away. He has been running a fully Tridentine Parish – and although his Parishioners loved it –  his Bishop didn’t .  The Parishioners took to protesting his removal, and paid for Real Catholic TV to go to the Parish where  Voris interviewed them to broadcast on  Real Catholic TV

     The Parishioners say they are being given heretical teaching by their new Novus Ordo Catechist (No Tridentine now available since Fr Rodriguez left) – such as 1) That one day there will be women Priests, 2) That the recipe for the Host can be altered to be more relevant for a Country – ie Rice for China!

    There are a few of Fr Rodriguez’s videos on YouTube – one called “The Enemy is within – The Kiss of Judas Iscariot ” Here is a link. 


    It is unbelievable!  Frightening too! A lot of awful things that are hidden are brought to light.  He discusses the Bella Dodd issue – she was an ex-Communist who converted to Catholicism (Bishop Sheen Converted her) She said that she had infiltrated 1100 Communists into the Priesthood to destroy it from within with their bad behaviour.  She also said that (as Our Lady had warned in her apparitions) they were now in the highest positions in the Church.  Dodd told Bishop Sheen that they were going to so change the Catholic Church that no-one would recognise Her.  

    Fr.  Rodriguez – who really is brilliant ! – went to the City Council Meeting and very gently criticised their policies on Homosexuals. There is footage of it on You tube.  Also footage of the Press interviewing him afterwards.  If Fr. Rodriguez is an example of the kind of Priest that is being attracted to the Tridentine Mass – the Devil’d better watch out!  He is totally fearless.  I think he is going to be a Saint.  

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Fr+michael+rodriguez&oq=Fr+michael+rodriguez&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_l=youtube.12..0.7307.7832.0.9520.3.3.0.0.0.0.91.252.3.3.0…0.0.rnxRrljT1Yg 

  • Charles Martel

     I agree with almost everything you say, Caroline. However, I think Paul VI was indeed a liberal according to the standards of the time in the Church, and was recognised as such by Pius XII, for example. The problem is that in the Church today ‘liberal’ means you support abortion and homosexual ‘marriage’ and wear a cheese hat on your head while holding a balloon as you celebrate Mass.

  • Arthur Scroggins

    Thanks
    The 20th C has been horrible. Death to millions of living, death to millions of unborn, death to families, and worse death to souls. Thanks for bringing life to the debate.
    This Sunday’s Mass will be offered for you and the others on this site.

    GBU

  • Arthur Scroggins

    Well said (and others on this post)
    I have somewhere in the many tapes of Bp W’s lectures a reference where he specifically attacks anti-semitism. I will look for it so I can post it.

  • Caroline

    The audio recording of Fr Gommar depauw’s 1967 Lecture “Catholic or Conciliar”  isn’t on Youtube – it is on Gloria TV. Here is the link 

    http://tl.gloria.tv/?media=44492 

    God Bless

  • Caroline

    Hello Charles

    Perhaps he was just extremely naive.  A sheep – believing himself to be secure in the sheep fold, not aware that there were wolves circling around him wearing sheeps clothing.

    Perhaps His Holiness,  (like many Bishops today)  did not wish to believe in what appeared to be frightening,  doom  laden  prophecies of Our Lady at La Salette, Fatima etc….   They all should have been much more prepared for Satan’s attacks when they came.  Our Lady did say at Fatima that a threat would come from Russia, and Bella Dodd bore witness that  this was true on her conversion to Catholicism in the 70′s.  Dodds admitted that she had personally  entered over “1100 Card Carrying Communists” into the Catholic Seminaries, verifying that  Stalin had told her “We can not turn Catholic Priests  into Communists – but we can turn Communists into Catholic Priests!.” – Dodds told Archbishop Fulton J Sheen  that Stalin’s plan was to destroy the reputation and the morality of the Catholic Church from within – and he considered it would be best achieved  by his  “Priests” scandalizing the world with their evil conduct.

    By the way – there is a very good review of a book written by a former KGB Officer. Who admits that a “black legend” was created around Pope Pius XII – Firstly they  had a work of fiction written  about a Mythical Pope who helped Hitler.  The book was called “The Deputy”   Then over time their agents spread the lie that that Pope was Pius XII who they knew to be a Saint.  They waited until his death to start reinventing him.

     http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/219739/moscows-assault-vatican/ion-mihai-pacepa

    I think a similar attempt to gradually reinvent Our Lord Jesus Christ is being made today with certain notorious works of Fiction..  Anybody who reads the writings of those Church father’s who knew the Apostles –  Polycarp, St Justin Martyr, Irenaeus,  St Ignatius of Antioch – Or the Secularist contemporary writers of the time who knew of Christ – eg Tacitus, Philo, Josephus (Jewish) the Jewish Talmud, Pliny etc…..can see that Christ was considered to have proven Himself to be God Incarnate by literally  thousands who knew him, and who had witnessed His miracles, His pure, chaste life, His suffering, His death on a Cross as our sacrificial lamb and finally His Resurrection and return to Heaven – The Scientists state that Billions of volts caused the Image on the Turin Shroud to form – It actually PROVES the Resurrection – (and possibly explains the rather bright light that emitted from the tomb when the stone suddenly rolled itself away!!).   So much evidence there is (and more is discovered each day)that Christ was who the Bible states Him to be, that this false Christ that people seem determined to create to replace Him is proven false extremely quickly if people check first that like Pope Paul VI they are not “lambs led astray” by false Shepherds.

  • daclamat

    Wasting space again, Jabbers

  • JabbaPapa

    Telegraph Troll hiding beneath a sockpuppet : spotted.

  • Alan

    It is possible that Williamson has objectively studied the evidence and come to the (bizarre) conclusion that the Shoah never really happened.  I suspect, however, that more likely he has inherited the anti-Semitism which infected large parts of the Church over centuries (and which Pius XI, for example, unreservedly condemned).  As one whose Jewish grandparents had to flee Poland, I feel quite strongly about this.

  • Benedict Carter

    Yes, I am aware of him. Cardinal Wuerl is the culprit there. A truly disgraceful story which proves on its own Our Lady’s words are fulfilled in our days. 

    And there are tens of thousands of other stories like his since that dratted Council down to which we are supposed to kneel like some golden calf.

  • Benedict Carter

    How did he “inherit” it? What was the process of inheritance?

    Bishop Williamson was an Anglican, not a Catholic, before his entry to the seminary at Econe.

  • Benedict Carter

    And God’s blessing on you and yours for that.

  • Alan

    There was a shameful anti-Semitism which infected the Christian (not just Catholic) Church over many centuries (based on a verse in Matthew).  So he may have caught it from his Anglicanism.
    But, as I say, it is possible he has made an objective study of the historical facts.  It would be interesting to see him come face-to-face with Holocaust survivors.

  • JabbaPapa

    The question regarding the SSPX is now officially in the hands of Pope Benedict XVI, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith having provided him with their conclusions concerning the Doctrinal Preamble signed by Monseigneur Fellay.

  • Benedict Carter

    Some elements of the CDF having in so many words (” .. their conclusions ..”) urged the Holy Father to sit on it until he dies. Some are for the reconciliation, many nu-Churchers are against, for obvious reasons.

  • JabbaPapa

    Yeah well — I trust Pope Benedict XVI.

  • buckle

    Wrong, he joined the Oratory as a novice. His Irish SD told him to go to Econe after several abortive attempts at joining the ‘normal’ Church. Before that, RW had scarcely heard of the place.

    Nor is he a holocaust denier. He has stated that he does not believe that 6 million people were gassed by the Germans between 1939-1945 as part of a deliberate policy on the basis that there is no evidence to support the claim. Given that most pro-gassing experts claim that the events took place after 1942 there is less than a 3 year window for this operation to have taken place.

    Look at the Germans now. They have laws devoted to this whole issue but they are still being blamed for the presnet economic problems of Europe. Not so much a case of “you can’t win” if you’re a German but more a case of “you can’t even lose”.

  • buckle

    This is more like it BC! Spot on.

  • Benedict Carter

    Thanks! :-)

  • Caroline

    Salt and Light TV interviewed Bishop Fellay in 2009.  

    It is a very revealing interview.

    By the way – there is an lovely statue of Our Lord as the “Good Shepherd”  in the Background behind Bishop Fellay. It reflects the 1st Century depiction of Our Lord as a beardless young man.

    A documentary I watched about the Shroud clarified that the origin of the Images of Our Lord as a bearded man seems to have commenced during  the 3rd and 4th Century when it appears that ALL of  the Holy Icons began to reflect the image that by that time was apparent on the Turin Shroud.  Many of the faces of the early Icons can be superimposed UPON the facial features of the Shroud and are almost a perfect fit!.

  • buckle

    This Bella Dodds stuff is nonsensical, immature and irrational. She claimed that every area and tier of American life was infiltrated by “communists”. Given that the Americans fought on behalf of the Soviet Union in WWII this is scarcely a dramatic conclusion. Roosevelt found himself dissolving the British and French empires (partly out of payback for the humiliations experienced by fellow democrat Wilson at Versailles) and in the process creating the Soviet Empire in addition to helping them achieve victory over Germany. Does that make Roosevelt a “communist”? A dupe yes, but a communist?

    The suspicion remains that Dodds was unable to say what she really thought of events so simply (and less contentiously) blamed “communists” for everything which is a safe option in the USA. In the final anaylsis, she obviously preferred the company of Fulton Sheen to the (ahem) “communists” with whom she has been hitherto associating and who can blame her?

  • Caroline

    Buckle
    It’s not only Bella Dodd’s witness.  Our Lady mentioned the threat from Russia in her Fatima apparitions in 1917  She also gave many detailed prophesies – specifically about the C20th – during the C16th apparitions known as “Our Lady of Good Success.”  (Mother Mariana the Ecuador visionary is incorrupt – 400 years later!)
    They are phenomenal prophecies!  When you realise they are over 400 years old. 

    In the C20th…….”Unbridled passions will give way to a total corruption of customs because Satan will reign through the Masonic sects, targeting the children in particular to insure general corruption. Unhappy, the children of those times! Seldom will they receive the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. As for the sacrament of Penance, they will confess only while attending Catholic schools, which the devil will do his utmost to destroy by means of persons in authority.  ”
    “The sacrament of Matrimony, which symbolizes the union of Christ with the Church, will be thoroughly attacked and profaned. Masonry, then reigning, will implement iniquitous laws aimed at extinguishing this sacrament. They will make it easy for all to live in sin, thus multiplying the birth of illegitimate children without the Church’s blessing.… 

    Two books are in print which contain the prophecies if you wish to read them.

    There used to be a  totally vile book in print called “the alta vendita”  which was published at the request of a Pope in the early C20th.  It is the “Masonic” written agenda.  Somehow it  got into the hands of a Pope in the early days of the C20th and it was subsequently published.  It seems that each century they call themselves something else to disguise their true intent.  - but it is ALWAYS the Catholic Church that they are attacking.  That is why a Catholic is not permitted to be a Freemason.  It is “grave error” and a case of automatic excommunication.

    Our Lady mentioned Communism at Garabandal.  She told Conchita that God’s “Great Chastisement of the Wicked” will happen when “Communism returns again.”

    So, If Dodds told the Senate  that she had inserted Communists into the Political Party – as well as 1100 Priests into our Holy Priesthood.  why do you find it so hard to believe???  It seems pretty obviously true examining the evidence.  Even none-Christians are finding it obvious that some kind of demonic anti-Christian agenda is at play.

    Our Lady said at La Salette to Melanie that the Devil would encourage some of  his servants try to enter Holy Orders.  Dodds actually told the American Government that she had personally been given the task by Stalin.    There is no confusion over this.
    She wrote a detailed biography of her life in 1954 called  “School of Darkness” 

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bella_Dodd

    A former KGB Officer has also mentioned it in his book – reviewed here. 

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/219739/moscows-assault-vatican/ion-mihai-pacepa 

    I think you’ll find it’s pretty clear-cut.  It’s not like the Governments do everything they possibly can to establish Christ’s Kingdom on earth now is it……It is exactly the opposite. 

  • indig0

    I don’t disagree with Bella Dodds but she was limited in what she could say. She labeled the present moral collapse as being due to communist infiltration. It’s more problematic than that as anyone who knows anything about the history of American communism will tell you. 

  • Benedict Carter

    It’s not just Bella Dodd. There are several reports available from ex-Communist secret police officials (several countries) confirming that this was a deliberate and general policy of the Party.

  • buckle

    I remain to be convinced that Bella Dodds had the power to insert communist sympathisers into American Catholic seminaries. Moreover  what about the thousands she didn’t insert?

  • baoni779
  • Caroline

    Who needed more? Look at the damage that the Church has suffered through just those 1100!   Look at all the damage that Hitler managed to do – He was just ONE!

    One visionary (I think it is Conchita at Garabandal!) said that Communism is a chastisement that God  has permitted Satan to inflict on the world as a punishment to us (and His Holy Church)  for not listening to His Saints, not obeying His Commandments, not converting Russia, and refusing to live and breath the Gospel as He hoped we would do for love of Him.

    We have permitted some haters of the Old World Order to dismantle it.

    The Old World Order of Pope, (Prime Minister of Christ’s Kingdom) advising the World’s Catholic Monarch’s subject to him.  Then beneath them, the rest of us,  the Catholic Laity subjected to the anointed Monarch.  (AKA King David!) 

    Satan has apparently spent a couple of hundred years bit by bit, dismantling THIS  Divinely instituted hierarchy – replacing the authority of the first two in the hierarchy with  some representative of his OWN – anti-Christian agenda.  Euthanasia, Abortion, Contraception, Corruption of Morals and Customs, removal of Innocence in Children by Pop Stars – instead of Holy Influences .

    Someone is trying to usurp unto himself the power of God, the authority of the Pope, and the power of Christ’s consecrated Monarchs.

     Has no one noticed that since the French Revolution almost ALL the Catholic Monarchs have been systematically removed from existance by one terrorist or another? – All in the name of Democracy. With lies, deceit and subterfuge spread to justify it.

    Not a Conspiracy theory – it is historical proven fact.  The French King was betrayed and slandered, but Louis was a Saint!   Read European History not ours.  His own last will and testament written in Prison stated that he forgave in Christ’s name all who had plotted against him and he was dying a martyr for the Holy Catholic Church!

    The initial dismantling, bit by bit of the Old Order and the creation of State run- churches, has now resulted in over 33 thousand privately run institutions.  At the point where we are today, all pretense that things are done for Christ’s benefit within this process appears now to have vanished.  It is the usual Eden-esque mistake made by sinful humanity to take the power of God upon ourselves and to wish to form things and institutions in OUR own image rather than Christ’s.  

    Yes, another point, the Bible states that WE are built in the image and likeness of God (Christ!) So, WHY are countless Christians accepting some Secularist Bible Hater telling them that we are all descended from APES?  How can some so-called Christians justify that that does not contradict the Bible and Sacred Tradition one iota.  Especially when the key instigators of that particular theory – themselves stated that they were seeking to remove “Moses” from Creation.  What an insult to Christ to believe such a preposterous claim! Christ said in John  5:46

    …. if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words? ”
    The” writings” of “Moses” are (Tradition states) the first five books of the Old Testament.  (Incl. the Genesis account of Creation.)

    The pushing of the theory of Evolution (and the Secularist media keeping totally silent as to the hundreds of intelligent people disputing it  - has been yet another surreptitious attempt to de-Christianise the world by removing faith in the Scriptures, and to seek to make a laughing stock of the Bible, removing it from it’s position of being considered a hitherto reliable source of information.  Why?  Over 492 Prophecies of every details of Christ’s life are contained in those Old Testament Scriptures.  A Protestant Evangelist has a presentation on the internet called “The Bible is Supernatural”  The information of Christ enclosed within the texts of the Old Testament is basically incredible!!   Miraculous!

    (Marco Pollo and Alexander the Great mentioned huge animals which sound like Dinosaurs in their writings – as does the Book of Job Chapters 40 and 41.  One is said to have a tail “like a Cedar”  Cedar’s are 40 foot high some of them!  There are wall paintings of “Dinosaurs”  that are only 1500 years old. Since archaeologists only knew of their existence (and what they looked like) at the end of the nineteenth century – how can such wall paintings exist dated to 1500 years ago? Common sense should tell us that someone had obviously seen one!

    Dr Grady McMurtry’s “Road to Man” on Youtube is very enlightening.  He was a highly accredited Evolutionist.  A member of Mensa.  Hes was so intelligent that he was teaching University Students the THEORY of Evolution at only 8 years old!  Don’t get him talking about Catholic Theology – (AAGH!!!!!)  He is not quite there yet – let’s pray  that THAT is his final conversion! – but his defense of Creationism and total rebuttal of the theory of Evolution is absolutely superb as is his evidence.

    David Rohl’s “Pharaohs and Kings”also proves that 200 years have been inserted into the time line of Biblical Chronology which is why no evidence of Old Testament Biblical events can be discovered at set time-lines followed stubbornly by Archaeologists..  David Rohl has not been granted airplay on British TV since the mid 1990′s.Some excerpts are here of his work.http://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en&q=david%20rohl%20&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1201&bih=716&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=w1&gl=GB To finish Look at these words of Blessed Pope John Paul II “We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of the American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel and the anti-Gospel. This confrontation lies within the plans of divine providence. It is a trial which the whole Church . . . must take up. —reprinted November 9, 1978, issue of The Wall Street Journal, Cardinal Karol Wojtyla – later Pope John Paul II  

    I think ALL Christians should take seriously the words of His Holiness Pope John Paul II. (Blessed)   Be really suspicious of unproven theories that are advanced by a society intent on the destruction  of Christianity.  Especially if such people have, as the basis for their theory – an ax to grind with Christianity.  Darwin’s daughter died, Henry the VIII did not have his prayer to be granted a male heir granted, Luther ( a Catholic Priest/Monk) wanted to get married.These are ALL resentful people, likely to either deliberately mislead themselves or others as to their motives for contradicting teachings already revealed by the infallible Church. They are obviously not Visionaries or Godly and Holy people!  We should have more faith, believe in the Bible one hundred percent, Thousands of our Saints DIED for every word of that Bible to be upheld – Why do we all justify a widespread desertion from it NOW?  Let’s make some effort to prevent ourselves – and those we associate with from  being led into grave error by  “Doctrines of Devils.”  1 Timothy 4:1   Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils.

    That is clearly totally TRUE!

    Sorry it’s so long.  ….God Bless everyone - 

    PS  I must add this one.  If you know of anyone who doubts that Jesus is God show them this passage from the Old Testament.  It is a prophesy of God promising the Hebrews that He will send someone to lead them into the Promised Land.  The passage of time proved that person to be Joshua.

    Exodus 23
    [20] Behold I will send my angel,(messenger) who shall go before thee, and keep thee in thy journey, and bring thee into the place that I have prepared.[21] Take notice of him, and hear his voice, and do not think him one to be contemned: for he will not forgive when thou hast sinned, and MY NAME IS IN HIMJoshua = Yeshua = JESUS!(referred to by St Justin Martyr- who knew St John, in his “Dialogue with Trypho – Chapters 69-88)http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm 

  • Jloughnan

    Here is an extract from my file on “The Jews” and anti-semitism

    “In 1989, Williamson delivered some speeches in Canada that caused some consternation, and got him investigated for possible hate crimes by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In Sherbrooke, Quebec, he said, ‘there was not one Jew killed in the gas chambers. It was all lies, lies, lies. The Jews created the Holocaust so we would prostrate ourselves on our knees before them and approve of their new State of Israel…. Jews made up the Holocaust, Protestants get their orders from the devil, and the Vatican has sold its soul to liberalism.’”

    See more at http://jloughnan.tripod.com/thejews.htm

    F. John Loughnan

  • yayabllahblah

    My big aunt was the head of resistance in Europe and she was brought to the chamber gas few times all naked and each time she ran away~ She told us about all the horrible seens about how many Jews were burnt to dust. …Our pope himself is from Germany, he has witnessed to the true history of Holocaust, if you watch he movie on life of Jean Paul the Second you see the history as well…How can you deny the  Holocaust, my own grand father served the army and was captured by Nazi army…so many books have been written, so many soldiers and witnesses have sweared they have seen the same thing hap[ening to Jews in Europe. It is true that more Christians got killed then Jews but still The Holocaust did happen. How can you deny it. Just visit those awful places in Germany and in Europe, you still can smell the smell of toasted bodies in concentration camps in Europe! You all know it existed but you are in war with Jews! Jesus did not come on earth to start wars and get revenge, this is not the catholic true teachings!

  • Joannamak61

     I have visited Fr Loughnan webpage and found that he has got a child from the sentence: “one of the boys from the group – a country boy – challenged my
    prepubescent son to “a fight around the back of the hal”. Are you a Protestant convert Fr Loughnan??

  • Joannamak61

     the problem is that SSPX headquarters are in Germany and in this country ‘denying’ holocaust is a criminal offence. I am not sure if BW has German citizenship though but in some way the charges were pressed against him. BTW we are all entitled to have personal opinions as is BW but we need to remember that ‘holocaust denial’ is a hallmark of Neonazism and nutters like Carolyn Yeager who glorifies Hitler etc etc. BW should have known better before giving his interview to Swedish tv.

  • Joanna

     Dear Alan, the Church never taught anti-semitism to anyone, these sentiments were common through ages, no matter what religion, simply because Jews borrowed money with heavy interest, you cannot deny it. There were also some other issues. These are facts. Solzhenitsyn describes these problems in his unpublished yet book ’200 yrs together’.