Thu 23rd Oct 2014 | Last updated: Wed 22nd Oct 2014 at 18:57pm

Facebook Logo Twitter Logo RSS Logo
Hot Topics

Latest News

Catholic world mourns renowned biblical scholar Cardinal Martini

By on Friday, 31 August 2012

Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini with Pope Benedict in 2005 (AP)

Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini with Pope Benedict in 2005 (AP)

Italian Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, a renowned biblical scholar and former Archbishop of Milan, died today aged 85 after a long battle with Parkinson’s disease.

Pope Benedict XVI met the cardinal privately during a visit to Milan in June and had been informed of his failing health, the Vatican press office said.

The cardinal was a prolific author whose books were bestsellers in Italy and included everything from scholarly biblical exegesis to poetry and prayer guides.

He retired as Archbishop of Milan in 2002, where he was known as a strong pastor and administrator, and as a very careful, thoughtful advocate of wider discussion and dialogue on some delicate and controversial Church positions.

At various times, he expressed openness to the possibility of allowing married Latin Rite priests under certain circumstances, ordaining women as deacons and allowing Communion for some divorced Catholics in subsequent marriages not approved by the Church.

During a special Synod of Bishops for Europe in 1999, he made waves when he proposed a new Church-wide council or assembly to unravel “doctrinal and disciplinary knots” such as the shortage of priests, the role of women, the role of laity and the discipline of marriage. His carefully worded remarks reflected his belief that the Church would benefit from a wider exercise of collegiality, or the shared responsibility of bishops for the governance of the Church. The idea of a new council was not taken up formally by the synod.

Following his retirement, his interests focused on biblical studies, Catholic-Jewish dialogue and praying for peace in the Middle East.

In a September 2004 message to a symposium on the Holy Land and interreligious dialogue, the cardinal wrote that Christians who visit Jerusalem should suspend judgment on the political situation there and simply pray for both sides. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict had become so complicated and painful that even an expert would have trouble sorting it out, he said.

In a November 2004 speech at Rome’s Gregorian University, he told Catholics they could not understand their faith unless they understood the Jewish faith practised by Jesus and his disciples.

“It is vital for the Church not only to understand the ancient covenant [between God and the Jewish people] which has endured for centuries in order to launch a fruitful dialogue, but also to deepen our own understanding of who we are as the Church,” he said.

Even in retirement, the cardinal kept up with issues of importance in the life of the Church. He was sought after for interviews and frequently published opinion pieces in Italian newspapers.

After Pope Benedict eased restrictions on the celebration of the pre-Vatican II liturgy in 2007, Cardinal Martini wrote a newspaper column explaining why, even though he loved the Latin language and could even preach in Latin, he would not celebrate the old Mass.

He said he admired Pope Benedict “benevolence” in allowing Catholics “to praise God with ancient and new forms” by permitting wider use of the 1962 form of the Mass, but his experience as a bishop had convinced him of the importance of a common liturgical prayer to express Catholics’ unity of belief.

The cardinal also said the reformed liturgy that came out of the Second Vatican Council marked “a real step forward” in nourishing Catholics “with the word of God, offered in a much more abundant way than before”, with a much larger selection of Scripture readings.

In a 2008 book-length interview called Nighttime Conversations in Jerusalem, Cardinal Martini said Pope Paul VI’s 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae, which taught that birth control was morally wrong, led many Catholics to distance themselves from the Church and from listening to and being challenged by the Catholic vision of human sexuality.

While not specifically addressing the morality of contraception, the cardinal said the Church needed to take a more pastoral approach to questions of sexuality. “The Church should always treat questions of sexuality and the family in such a way that a leading and decisive role is up to the responsibility of the person who loves,” he said.

Born in Orbassano, near Turin, on February 15 1927, Carlo Maria Martini entered the Society of Jesus in 1944, was ordained a priest on July 13 1952 and took his final vows as a Jesuit in 1962.

The cardinal, a biblical scholar, never held a parish post. With doctorates in theology and biblical studies, he was a seminary professor in Chieri, Italy, from 1958 to 1961, professor and later rector of the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome from 1969 to 1978, and rector of the Pontifical Gregorian University from July 1978 until his December 1979 appointment to Milan.

After his retirement in 2002 he moved to Jerusalem and purchased a burial plot there but returned to Milan after his health worsened in 2008. He died in a Jesuit retirement home near Milan, surrounded by his Jesuit confreres and members of his family.

When he was named Archbishop of Milan, Cardinal Martini was the first Jesuit in 35 years to lead an Italian archdiocese. Pope John Paul II ordained him an archbishop on January 6 1980, in St Peter’s Basilica and named him a cardinal in 1983.

A well-known speaker and retreat master, he served as spiritual director of the US bishops’ spring meeting in Collegeville, Minnesota, in 1986. In that role, he conducted a day of recollection on the first day and presented a series of reflections during morning prayers throughout the meeting.

Cardinal Martini’s death leaves the College of Cardinals with 206 members, 118 of whom are under the age of 80 and therefore eligible to vote in a conclave to elect a new pope.

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    Edited by author

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    ” …. if one wants the Catholic Church to be itself, the body of Christ in the truest sense …”.

    What the heck does THAT mean? Oh, it means a Church made up by you, doesn’t it?

  • Dove

    Cardinal Martini: a man of great insight.  
    May he rest in peace; may his spirit live on.

  • Dorotheus

    No, it means exactly what it says: the church of God founded by Jesus Christ, and not some imitation or distortion of it. See Scripture and Tradition if you do not know what this means. I don’t know about Marxist jargon, being a Catholic not a Marxist, but you seem to be able to pack plenty of ignorance into a few word. You have had plenty of practice at it here. 

  • Cafeteria R.C.

    Cardinal Martini would have been a grand pope of the likes of Pope John XXIII. 

  • ChurcHistorian

     Actually, the so called “deposit of the faith as espoused by the early Church Fathers “, is not at all so homogenous as you might think. Although the early Church Fathers may have some common points of view regarding certain issues, there are, on the other hand the issues of Faith where their views rather differ. Especially those who lived before the first Council. Their doctrine was pretty much ignored by the catholic theologians of 19th and 20th century. Before the II Vatican, it was almost forbidden to study them. The expert for patrology and patristics who were invited to take part of Vatican II, were at same time on the INDEX. And, by the way, the Church Fathers were much more liberal and creative, then any other theologians. First of all, they didn’t have Inquisition, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Index Librorum prohibitorum, or any other instance who could control their teaching or writing; and more important, their main goal was the give birth to the others in Faith. That’s why they’re called “Fathers”. So, it could be very usuful for you, first to check on some facts from Church history or theology. Spitting on the Vatican II or judging it “not doctrinal” or, more sadly, not important for the Church, is the highest level of ignorance and arrogance, and I would dare to say, fanaticism.  May the Lord enlighten your heart and open your eyes.

  • Margaret Hawkes

    Would Jesus have been classed as a liberal? I have often wondered who Jesus’s table companions would be today, and who He would refuse to share his bread with. And who would Jesus shock today? Was Cardinal Martini faithful to the Good news of the Gospel? Many believe he was and that is enough for me.

  • O’hEarain

    Jesus was compassionate. Full stop. For some compassion seems to equal liberalism, how sad

  • awkwardcustomer

    Help. I’ve been trying to post comments on Mundabor’s excellent blog.  Any suggestions on how to register?

  • awkwardcustomer

    ‘Ahead can only be seen a further descent into rigid dogmatism, exclusive sectariantriumphalism, rampant clericalism, superstition, myopic zeal and obsession withlaw, more shoddy Latin or equally shoddy Latinate pseudo-English in theliturgy, parading of relics, proud prelates dressed up like medieval potentatesand all the sorry ludicrous paraphernalia.’

    Can’t wait.  Bring it on!

  • awkwardcustomer

    ‘…. using the language of obscurantism to defend reaction and anti-progress…’

    You sound like a Marxist

  • awkwardcustomer

    If you’re not a Marxist, why are you using Marxist terms?

  • thenewmissalisadisgrace

    Shame on you!  Call yourself a Christian!  ‘I can only find pleasure at his passing’.  You and the likes of you make me feel ashamed to be a Roman Catholic!

  • JabbaPapa

    Please don’t just parrot boo-words!

    boo-words like “rigid dogmatism”, “exclusive sectarian triumphalism”, “rampant clericalism”, “superstition”, “myopic zeal”, “like-minded reactionary clones”, “shoddy Latinate pseudo-English”, “parading of relics”, “proud prelates”, “medieval potentates” and “sorry ludicrous paraphernalia” you mean ?

    Or were you thinking of other boo-words ?

  • Rowancarstairs

    Yes I know Milan and much of Italy fairly well. Martini was a Modernist heritic and showed his hatred for Holy Mother Church by causing scandal in having a posthumous attack (that Luther would have been proud of) on Our church aimed at further weakening The Faith to be published. We can thank God that the reign of terror and permanent revolution so beloved by the hippy clerics of the 1960′s is closing with the arrests of the child molestors and anti-Catholic infiltrators that have attempted to destroy Christ’s Church from within. Error has no rights.

  • Rowan carstairs

    The man had a very comfortable life and enjoyed it to the full, his words concerning the poor are pure hypocrisy. He took from The Church everything he had and his thanks for that generosity is to scandalise the faithful in his rabid denunciation of Holy Mother Church. He and his ilk are the ones responsible for the ‘decomposition of Catholicism’ and the ruin of souls. As the heretical, Modernist and protestant hippies of the 1960′s die off a new generation of true Catholics will restore the Church to her former glory and that glory will be seen in the saving and sanctification of souls.

    This parasitic old man cared nothing for the millions of aborted children and the other evils of this godless society, he lived in a world of self absorption and liberal posturing, he was truly a man of his time; 1963.


  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    That’s not right at all.

    Of course full of compassion: but stern with those who had ruined His first “Church”. And full of warnings for those who break the moral law. 

  • JabbaPapa

    his words concerning the poor are pure hypocrisy


    Where in his interview does he say anything about “the poor” ?

    He simply talks about “Uomini che siano vicini ai più poveri” in a laudative manner — which says nothing about the poor themselves.

    his rabid denunciation of Holy Mother Church

    Self-evidently, not everybody understands the subtleties of well-educated Italian.

    (I refuse to quote from the English “translation” that’s circulating for this very reason)

    HINT — he has not in fact “denounced” the Church, rabidly or otherwise — instead, we are being subjected to a combination of extremist liberalist and ultra-traditionalist propaganda, each purporting to depict this man as a symbol of what’s “wrong” with the Church — it is simply ghastly to abuse the recently deceased in this cynically political manner.

    This parasitic old man cared nothing for the millions of aborted children and the other evils of this godless society

    These ghastly slanders are revolting, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    Exactly, awkward.

    The poster was probably singing “Keep the Red Flag flying” as he/she wrote. 

    Tell you what though, I am impressed by the amount of Marxist jargon fitted into such a short space. That must take practice!

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    “Supposed certainties”.

    That phrase is enough to know that you aren’t a Catholic.

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    Martini had decades of “form” before this last interview Jabba. 

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    Sign up an account with then you can leave a comment. Mundabor’s blog is pre-moderated. He refuses to post any comment from liberals, progressives, Novus Ordo fanatics and similar. Quite right too.

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    Vatican II is certainly “important for the Church”. It was the moment when the wolves formally entered into possession of the castle keep.

  • O’hEarain

    Jesus came to Nazara, where he had been brought up, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day as he usually did. He stood up to read and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah. Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
    The spirit of the Lord has been given to me,
    for he has anointed me.
    He has sent me to bring the good news to the poor,
    to proclaim liberty to captives
    and to the blind new sight,
    to set the downtrodden free,
    to proclaim the Lord’s year of favour.
    … everyone in the synagogue was enraged. They sprang to their feet and hustled him out of the town; and they took him up to the brow of the hill their town was built on, intending to throw him down the cliff, but he slipped through the crowd and walked away.

  • Jampathaye2010


  • O’hEarain

    These appallingly unchristian views do not represent Christ not fortunately most Catholics

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    Yes, yes, we see the (false) point you are trying to make. 

    I attend the SSPX church in Nairobi, Kenya. The three wonderful French priests are opening a school for slum children. We are all helping them in what ways we can. 

    Orthodoxy + compassion = Catholicism. 
    Heterodoxy + compassion = nothing. 

  • O’hEarain

    You mean you think you see the point …
    You don’t have a monopoly on Compassion, far far from it (I spent six years of my life working in an African country and have undertaken voluntary work in Africa since, not that this is particularly relevant to your views).
    This is the first time I have taken part in a blog like this and I have been profoundly shocked at totally unchristian vies being expressed by those who call themselves Catholics – I will not be taken part in another blog like this for some time to come, if ever … still it is valuable to see where some of the enemies of Jesus are coming from
    God grant eternal rest to Cardinal Martini

  • O’hEarain

    This is the first time I have taken part in a blog like this and I have been profoundly shocked at the totally unchristian views being expressed by those who call themselves Catholics – I will not be taken part in another blog like this for some time to come, if ever … still it is valuable to see where some of the enemies of Jesus are coming from
    God grant eternal rest to Cardinal Martini

  • Sean

    I want to belong to a church where the leaders believe in the product. Martini didn’t and that disappoints me. To be honest I’m wondering what I’m doing in this church? A house divided against itself …. Never wonder the youth have given up on the church. Vat II and? Child abuse … Silence. Birth control, never heard a sermon. It’s a mess.

  • O’hEarain

    An Essay on Vatican II

    A Look Back Almost 60 Years Later

    January 2010Robert Blair Kaiser
    Pope John Paul II liked to describe the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council in terms that made it sound ponderously like an episcopal retreat, where the bishops spoke only in whispers and smiled sweet smiles at one another—when they weren’t actually caught up in prayer for direct guidance from the Holy Spirit. The Council I saw, when I was covering it for Time magazine, was more like a battleground between fairly fierce factions–the missionary-minded reformers who were fighting to make their Church more relevant to the 20th century facing off against those led by the self-satisfied power elite inside the Roman Curia who tried to block every move they made.
    In the process, the reformers brought a large measure of humanity to the Church’s stuffy chambers, exercising something quite common in the early Church, but quite rare in the Church of Pius X, and Pius XI, and Pius XII – what we call in America freedom of speech. As a result, Catholics learned to see how the Church leadership made its most important decisions, not after some special revelations from on high, but in often-heated debate. Almost overnight, the Church was seen as less angelic and the men of the Church a lot more human.
    The reformers took their cue from John XXIII, whose training was in history, not theology. The pope’s chief theologian, Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, had the motto Semper Idem emblazoned on his coat of arms. But those who have read history know that the Church was not always the same. It was “in history,” just as, come to think of it, Jesus was “in history.”
    Not long ago, I got a certain insight into the “non-historical orthodoxy” of the Curial mindset (Michael Novak coined the term some 40 years ago) when I read some remarks delivered at a conference in Milan by Cardinal Gianbattista Re concerning democracy in the Church. You guessed it: Re, a lifelong Vatican bureaucrat, was against it, because in a democracy the people are sovereign, while the Church, according to Re, is ruled by a pope whose authority is “instituted from above.” Re explained that in the Church the people are protected from themselves by something he called “the hierarchical constitution of the Church” which, he said, “must not be seen as a limitation to the freedom and spontaneity of Christians, but as one more manifestation of God’s mercy toward men.” How so? Because, he said, that hierarchical constitution can remove the Church from the “variations, mutations and competitions” that occur “in history.” In other words, if the people follow orders from Rome, they can be above history.
    John XXIII didn’t believe that he, or anyone else, was above history. Nor did he dare say the Church could never change. History gave him some perspective. So did his diplomatic postings before he became the patriarch of Venice (and then the pope), principally to Paris and to Istanbul. He knew about the Crusades, those so-called holy wars against the so-called infidel, and the bloody, inconclusive outcome of them all. And he told anyone who would listen that he didn’t want to see any more Crusades, not even against communism. He wanted to end the era of “us-against-them.” No more good guys against the bad guys.
    At first, some of the Council Fathers didn’t understand. Many bishops came to Rome with a long list of the things and the people in the world that needed condemning. “No, no,” said the pope, “you do not understand. We do not want this council to condemn anyone or anything. We have had enough of saying no to the world. Now is the time we want to say yes.” It was also a time when the pope wanted to give the Church back to the people. Those writing the Council’s charter tried to do exactly that.
    “Giving the Church to the people” may be an oversimplification, but I’d like to see if I can make a case that this was what the Council Fathers were aiming at. Here goes.
    A Break from the Past?
    In 1997, the producers of a television documentary asked men and women what Vatican II had meant to them. Answers were mostly euphoric. “If it weren’t for Vatican II, the Church would be a museum,” said a young man named Pablo Roma.
    “If it weren’t for Vatican II,” said Fr. Virgil Elizondo, pastor of the cathedral in San Antonio, Texas, “you wouldn’t see all those young people around the altar.”
    “If it weren’t for Vatican II,” said Therese Bonpane, director of the Office of the Americas in Los Angeles, “I might have continued living in the fear of God instead of with enthusiasms and a passion for life.”
    “If it weren’t for Vatican II,” said Dutch Theologian Edward Schillebeeckx, “I would have missed the most joyous days of my life.”
    These people, all Catholics, felt good about the Council because it had given them a new meaning and a new identity based not on prohibitions and fear, but on freedom and responsibility. They understood that their bishops, vicars of Christ in their own churches, had voted their enthusiastic support to the man who called them together, Pope John XXIII. They resonated to his optimistic, open definitions of what it meant to be on the road to salvation in the latter half of the century. “You do not have to be Catholics,” the pope once told some Communists from Bologna, “as long as you are helping make a better world.”
    In 1962, Pope John XXIII asked some visiting Protestant monks from Taizé why they couldn’t get together.
    “We have different ideas,” said their leader.
    “Ideas, ideas!” he said. “What are ideas among friends?” The story was told over and over again around conciliar Rome, because it represented something new in Catholic history: a pope who believed that setting the Church apart from the rest of humankind was divisive, and, in a nuclear world, very dangerous as well.
    But the message also fell on the negative ears of some embattled Catholics who had imbibed the dreads and the definitions that were fashioned by the gloomy Church they had known as kids. They didn’t take the time and the effort to learn what the new Church stood for.

  • O’hEarain

    Humans are messy people … however …

    And all shall be well;
    And all manner of things shall be well

  • Concerned

    Could anyone tell me where is he to be laid to rest and where his requiem will be? 

  • Apostolic

    I thought Milan was vibrant in spite of him, because of the New Movements which he vehemently opposed.

  • JabbaPapa

    That’s a good, well-written article — and whilst obviously liberal in inspiration, not in a heterodox manner.

    One interesting point though :

    At first, some of the Council Fathers didn’t understand. Many bishops
    came to Rome with a long list of the things and the people in the world
    that needed condemning. “No, no,” said the pope, “you do not understand.
    We do not want this council to condemn anyone or anything. We have had
    enough of saying no to the world. Now is the time we want to say yes.”

    OK — nevertheless, the next Ecumenical Council could not possibly be more of the same ; it will need to be dogmatic ; it will need to say “No, no, no” to the current climate of rampant heresies everywhere.

    “You do not have to be Catholics,” the pope once told some Communists from Bologna, “as long as you are helping make a better world.”

    Ironically, this is *exactly* a Catholic message. Augustinian, in fact.

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    “What are ideas among friends?”

    What are dogmas, doctrines and the teaching of the Fathers and of the Saints? Let’s bin all that old rubbish and invent a New Church, taking it’s ideas from the people and reflecting the reality of the Here and Now, that’s the Church we want? And so what if that means changing teaching on abortion, euthanasia, women priests, homosexuality! We are Church! That Christ guy would’ve done the same thing too. We Moderns are different! We see sin as arising from structures and bad politics, not from so-called “Original Sin”! In fact, what is sin? There isn’t any really. And we are not Fallen, it’s due to what family you were born into. So let’s celebrate ourselves, let’s gather around the altar well table really like that clever Mr Luther suggested and celebrate and worship ourselves! And as for that God bloke, we use a small “g” now, because he’s on our level, in fact let’s shunt him aside altogether, what’s important is what we feel, none of that ‘guilt’ stuff for us, oh no, we are much too important not like those medieval idiots who believed in the Virgin Mary. And get rid of all those superstitions, I mean in this world of atomic bombs and natural yoghurt and plastic surgery who can actually believe that Real Presence crap? We are Church and don’t you forget it. 

    An “Essay” on Vatican II, eh? If I was a teacher of literature I wouldn’t give a “Z” grade to such utter bilge. 

  • JabbaPapa

    I want to belong to a church where the leaders believe in the product. Martini didn’t and that disappoints me.

    Please don’t listen to the propaganda being spouted on all sides — It actually *is* possible to be simultaneously liberal and orthodox, you know — don’t let yourself be blinded by the fact that the great majority of our contemporary liberals are entranced by whichever local heterodoxy…

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    A majority of those recommending say otherwise …..

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    It’s entirely UN-Catholic. There isn’t a word there about their eternal Salvation, is there?

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    “It actually *is* possible to be simultaneously liberal and orthodox, you know” …

    The Popes say otherwise.

  • Apostolic

    I see that Cardinal Martini has been laid out like a “medieval potentate” and in “all the sorry ludicrous paraphernalia”. Quite right too, even if his office rather than his obedience deserved it.

  • JabbaPapa

    O’hEarain : This is the first time I have taken part in a blog like this

    Ah !! Gotcha !!! I was actually wondering about your posts, and this explains them.

    Lack of experience with contemporary blog talk-backers :-)

    It’s hard to be Catholic during any post-Conciliar period of any major Ecumenical Council — FWIW, and just for comparison’ sake, Trent took about 100 years to be fully accepted — and the immediate post-Conciliar years were agitated in a very similar manner to the current agitation in our Church.

    I have been profoundly shocked at the totally unchristian views being expressed by those who call themselves Catholics

    Well, I’ll include myself in this category, I’m sure I’m just as sinful as everyone else — but then, I’d guess so are you, with this comment of yours TBH …

    Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.

    The Catholic Church encompasses a very wide variety of licit views, and an even wider variety of illicit ones — everyone has problems with illicit views when they are expressed, because they attack the basics of the Faith ; it’s a lot harder for people to accept that a point of view disagreed with might actually be perfectly licit, sometimes contrary to their own opinion as based on their own, different, just as licit POV.

    FWIW I find that the attacks against Cardinal Martini, whether overt from the ultra-conservative side, or covert from the revisionist ultra-liberals, or just plain old nasty from the atheists/secularists/anti-Catholics, are quite simply horrendous.

    Bottom line, none of us will ever be perfectly Christian until we join in Full Communion with our Lord in Heaven. And who knows, perhaps not even then.

    Perfection belongs to God, and in a lesser manner of perfection in mortals to Saint Mary.

    Expecting perfection from various random online characters is — well, unchristian.

  • JabbaPapa

    I attend the SSPX church in Nairobi, Kenya.

    Please say hello to my dear friend Benedict.

  • JabbaPapa

    haha that’s hilarious !!!

  • Apostolic

    He also said some strong things about not having come to change the Law but to fulfill it, so one has to be careful about selective quotation.

  • JabbaPapa

    No, people are just letting themselves be manipulated by propaganda.

    It’s VERY easily succumbed to, we are bathed in a constant flow of it 24/7 thanks to the internet.

    Cardinal Martini was in fact an orthodox Catholic of the liberal persuasion — orthodox liberal clergy are a VERY rare breed these days, so they are of course nearly always misunderstood by other Catholics.

    What does “orthodox liberal” mean ? It means that you belong to the VERY ancient faction in the Church that is both progressive AND faithful to ALL of the requirements of the Tradition (but not necessarily all of the ideals of the traditional faction).

    The proper dialogue in the Church is between orthodox traditionals, orthodox liberals, and the Magisterium and the Faithful (lay, religious, clergy).

    The *current* dialogue is screwed by the extreme excesses of various non-orthodox radicals.

  • JabbaPapa

    Not *every* Catholic statement concerns Eternal Salvation in an explicit manner.

    Condemning errors concerns salvation ; proposing positive teachings for evangelisation concerns salvation ; teaching some at least basic Catholic doctrines to atheists concerns *their* salvation (though it’s pretty much just a message in a bottle).

    Purely religious ie non-dogmatic and non-pastoral matters in the Church concern salvation only very peripherally…

  • JabbaPapa

    Liberalism has never been condemned — you’re confusing it with modernism and relativism.

    I mean OK, these days in the 21st century liberalism in the Church is nearly exactly identical to both heresies — but that’s my point ; a priest who is liberal within the orthodoxy is a very rare bird since about the 1970s at least. (my confessor is a liberal orthodox, and he’s brilliant in many ways that are often very foreign to me personally)

    Basically because since the 1960s theological liberalism has been erroneously conflated with political liberalism by such wreckers as Hans Küng and all of the liberation theologians…

    … who’ve given all words starting with “liber-” a very bad name.

    Which is my point, really — orthodox liberal Catholics (and I’m not one myself) are being unfairly lumped in with the much larger heterodox liberal crowd…

  • JabbaPapa

    These readings of the article are erroneous.

    You’re right to condemn all of these things — but the author of the article has not proposed them.

  • Ælfrid the Mercian

    Satire beyond you, Jabba?

    Except that, funnily enough, the mentality of Kaiser (which reeks of indifferentism) is exactly that of those who really do propose the elements contained in the satire that follows .. . 

    So not such a satire after all, eh?