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Cardinal questions whether David Cameron can be trusted

By on Tuesday, 18 December 2012

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor (Photo: Mazur/catholicchurch.org.uk)

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor (Photo: Mazur/catholicchurch.org.uk)

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, Emeritus Archbishop of Westminster, has said David Cameron’s push for same-sex marriage puts into question whether he is “someone whose steadiness of purpose can be relied on”.

In a letter to the Daily Telegraph, the cardinal pointed out that same-sex marriage was not an election commitment, unlike the Conservatives’ promise to introduce tax incentives for married couples, which has so far been dropped.

He wrote: “In the run-up to the last election, the Prime Minister led us to believe that the strengthening of marriage as an institution was one of his important objectives.

“The Conservative Party’s manifesto, which made no mention of ‘gay marriage’, included a proposed tax break for married couples.

“Nothing has subsequently been heard of the latter proposal, and instead of action to strengthen marriage, we have the proposal to abandon the traditional understanding of marriage on the basis of a ‘consultation’ which explicitly excluded the possibility of a negative result.

“Protestations that this is all fundamentally ‘conservative’ ring a bit hollow.

“It is difficult not to wonder how far the Prime Minister is someone whose steadiness of purpose can be relied on,” he wrote.

The cardinal also argued that marriage was important to society as a whole, “believers and unbelievers alike”.

He said: “Redefining it as simply a contract between individuals irrespective of their sex, without regard either to its procreative function or to the complementarity of the relationship between man and woman, would be an abuse of language.

“More important, it would weaken marriage by diminishing its implications and therefore its significance.

“It has long been accepted that the State has the right to oversee the administration and legal aspects of marriage but it has never been accepted that the State can dictate to individuals and society itself what marriage should mean to us.”

  • Sweetjae

    Politicians can not be trusted, their loyalty is just their own skin….re-election much like Pontius Pilate, never changes.

  • Nat_ons

    Sadly, and with a great deal more importance than the influence of a passing politcian, I am still not entirely sure if we can trust His Eminence, his replacement at Westminster, or a good many now in oversight of the Church (in England and Wales as elsewhere).

    A dreadful indictment indeed, and no doubt one that requires substantial evidence – thankfully this public arena is not the place to test the fidelity of his deeds (or the cure of souls inspired by his approved laisse faire theologies).

    I apologise in advance to Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor, to His Grace the Archbishop of Westminster, and any in oversight of the church catholic who find this charge offensive – or unfair; yet a fiery test awaits our deeds.

  • whytheworldisending

    I agree with Richard Dawkins on this one. He says Cameron is, “not really a christian,” and he’s right – he is an atheist. Nobody who believes in God preaches and promotes what is contrary to the Gospel, so as to undermine the faith of the nation. Mark 9:42 explicitly excludes such people. Cameron’s strategy of claiming to be christian while promoting sodomy is calculated to appease liberal voters, and I don’t think you can trust him because he contradicts himself. He said his proposals would ‘change what happens in a register office, not what happens in a church.’ That is no longer true.

    I’d say he’s about as reliable as Nick Clegg, who said he wouldn’t raise tuition fees. He said he doesn’t want to fall out with faith groups over “gay marriage,” but there is only one way to avoid that. If he carries on, he – like Clegg – is going to meet a LOT of people who are dissappointed and angry - is he going to say he’s sorry? Is he going to hold his hands up? That’s what Nick Clegg did, and actually that’s what a christian would do. Clegg lost trust in the Liberal party. Cameron is doing the same for what used to be his own party. Christian? No – I don’t even believe him when he claims to be a Conservative.

  • whytheworldisending

    The great thing about the Church is that they tell you what they really think - as opposed to what they think you want to hear. Politicians don’t govern anymore – they groom you for your vote.. 

  • maxmarley

    The cohabiters have wittingly or unwittingly helped to destroy marriage from without.
    Cameron and his pro sodomy allies are seeking to destroy this wonderful institution from within.
    When this absurdity is the norm, one wonders how decadent Britain and other western societies have now become.
    Greed, hedonism and the sacred cow of equality which allows for just about any subjective morality are the new criteria for moral chaos.
    And where are the Catholic bishops?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PWZKI7JBARE4DDT3NQ22RWMOJE Benedict Carter

    The Cardinal “questions”? 

    What planet is this man living on? The rest of us knew the answer even before the last election.

    Cameron is Eton’s answer to The Grinner Bliar and his metromale “new human being”.

  • GulliverUK

    If it’s a choice between David Cameron and those who hide paedophiles, vilify the victims, castrate choir boys to keep their singing voices for longer, who don’t follow the golden rule, who interfere in the lives of people outside the church, who bully and intimidate others to get their way, .. then Cameron wins every time.   Time to get your own house in order before pointing the finger at anyone else.  He was involved in the cover-up, along with many other priests and bishops, and the hierarchy in Rome.  It’s not a question of trust so much as criminal activities going on for hundreds of years.  There is nothing more divisive  in society – still – you only need to look around the world at how religion divides and destroys societies.  Where is the force for good, helping others, charity, the good Samaritan, defending of those who need help, providing sanctuary to those who are persecuted, standing up for social justice ?   

    The people who post here have forgotten all that, whilst most Catholics — have not.

  • Mtturner

    My heart goes out fully to our Church leaders at this time. They are facing an attack on the body of the Church which has not been witnessed in my lifetime (64)  They have been iniquitously placed in a situation where they cannot even comment on the malady of ‘ same sex marriage ‘ without being acused of  ‘ Bigotry’ Homophobia’ and similar nonsensical comments
    I for some 20 years have been a somewhat lapsed follower of the faith. Though I have to say not without some regret, that reget however is manifesting itself in the most positive support for our church
    on this matter. I would call upon all sensible Christians to quell this farcical bill, before it gets off the ground. that means NOW 

  • Mtturner

    Correct

    They actually presume they speak on our behalf, with or without mandate, they must learn quickly that is not the case. We will not have poorly concieved legislation forced upon us. You must do everything you can ( legally) and right now, to thwart the efforts of those who would make a nonsense of the Church and its followers by re-defining marrriage.

    MT

  • http://cumlazaro.blogspot.com/ Lazarus

    Yep, that’s your real agenda all right: destroy Catholicism. Just so long as we’re all clear about that.

  • drj81

    Abuse of minors is an outrage but it still occurs in vast numbers in the society in which we live. I should be careful on this subject as I have read that more than three-quarters of the clerical abuse in the U.S. was against post-pubescent boys. Not classed as paedophilia I understand but as something else. 
    As for this ongoing abuse in our country maybe start with the NSPCC but anywhere you like on the internet you’ll find stories and arrests all around. Personally I don’t think our society, culture, call it what you will is capable of rooting it out.  Operation Ore gave a clue as to how deeply embedded this problem can be and scarcely a day goes by. But it does not surprise me because it is a country that in the interests of equality used the parliament Act to lower the age of consent for homosexuals rather than raise it for heterosexuals and then claims it would like to reduce the number of teenage pregnancies and abortions. Cameron bleats about the sexualisation of society and is yet to detail any tax incentives for married-couples. A government that takes marriage and all it entails and thinks it can be reduced to a mere contract between two people for whom adultery can longer exist. Or have I misunderstood all this?
    As for the force for good well that’s the good news as it’s not difficult to see if you are interested. Unfortunately I can’t remember feeling able to trust politicians.

  • Stephen Smythe-Jones

    Agreed; but then I have never thought Cameron could be trusted on any issue to keep his word.

  • cullenD

    I read a simple phrase last week, 

    “Prejudice is permafrost”

    What the church can’t seem to adapt to is a simple fact, we will allow you to dictate to your winter-happy children, but we are moving away from your frozen tundra. Your rules don’t apply in a more clement/warm system. 

    To put it impoliticly, this is a very savvy, move by Cameron. He has his eye on the future, his, not his Nation’s. The Tory PM who introduces gay marriage to the UK will make a fortune on the lecture circuit. Blair has sewn up the “International Peace Building” market. “Dave” needs a different selling point. 

  • Fr. Thomas Poovathinkal

    “….. abuseof language.”

    POLITICIANS EVERYWHERE are habituated to playing with words in order to achieve their goals.

  • Fr. Thomas Poovathinkal

    “Where is the force for good, helping others, charity, the good
    Samaritan, defending of those who need help, providing sanctuary to
    those who are persecuted, standing up for
    social justice ? ”

    THESE abound in the CHURCH OF PETER; what needs to be added to these is promotion of APOSTLESHIP, so that Evangelisation will take place.

    “paedophiles”

    Nobody  has done anything to get rid of paedophiles as Pope Benedict XVI. Perhaps you are not in touch with what he does.

  • Rizzo The Bear

    With great respect, Your Eminence, politics went to pot years ago… and the rot hasn’t stopped yet.

    I wouldn’t put them in charge of a gerbil, never mind the country!Years ago, it was marginally clearer to determine which party stood for whatever – therefore, one had a pretty good idea about who to vote for.Not any more it’s not, especially if you are a Roman Catholic!The electorate has been short-changed/ripped off /conned/had one’s proverbial plums twisted by these politicians and their mealy-mouthed, forked-tongued, free-loading, self-serving agendas for a good few years now.

    You only have to look at the MPs expenses expose by the Daily Telegraph… I mean, good grief! Their expenses amounted to more than the living wage for a lot of people!

    Where’s the justice and that hackney’d word ‘equality’ and ‘democracy’ in that?

    The hard-working MP – who genuinely care about who put their backside on the green seat in the House of Commons – is so endangered, you’d feel like alerting the Worldwide Fund for Nature!

    It is a DANGEROUS thing that politics has become mediocre and spun-out. 

    That’s what gets lowlifes such as Hitler, Mussolini and others into power.

    You dare touch marriage, Cameron, and your political career is TOAST! 

    Ignore us at your peril.

  • Rizzo The Bear

    Yes, indeed you are right.

    Co-habiters allowed the rot to set in on the institution of marriage and the mockery that is gay marriage!My PP read out a letter by the Catholic bishops at Mass last Sunday, which was followed by a PS from our truly brilliant bishop, His Lordship Bishop Mark Davies of Shrewsbury – who is forthright and fearlessly vocal on these and many other issues.

    And the new Bishop of Portsmouth, Bishop Egan, is cut from the same cloth as Bishop Davies.

    I echo your question but slightly vary it – where are the REST of the Catholic bishops?

  • Rizzo The Bear

    Can we trust any of them?

    Not as far as I would throw them to earn an Olympic Gold Medal!

  • Rizzo The Bear

    You are talking out of your arrogant ass!

  • Rizzo The Bear

    LOL.

  • Rizzo The Bear

    Prayer and fasting – as well as action – is urgent to ensure this bill gets shot down in flames.

  • Paul

    You’re changing the subject Gulliver.
    I don’t like abust either but I’m not interested in replacing it with equal ‘marriage.’

  • cullenD

    Lots of Love back !

  • Gildaswiseman

    I have never heard of choir boys being castrated in order to keep their high voices. I have heard of the Catholic Church that gave us the teaching of Jesus Christ and the inspiring sacrifices of Holy Martyrs. Also I thank the Church that gave us seats of learning, universities, moral and ethical values and science (please do not quote the much misunderstood reality behind Galileo). It did this by having a positive world view as opposed to the pagans. Their world view was wholly negative and fearful of the Gods. Division in history is a human condition. Simply look to pre- Christian history and post -Christian history. Look at the extent of human sacrifice that existed around the world until the Catholic faith finally  put an end to it. 

    Not all Catholics are loyal to their faith and behave as they should. The Church should not be condemned for the unwise or inerrant behaviour of its members. The whole issue of the paedophile scandals are experienced right across the social spectrum, not just in the Church. It is a highly complex and disturbing thing and history will judge the true motives of those people who have had to deal with the scandal. Some have acted wisely and some have not. The Church condemns all paedophile behaviour and always has done. It also condemns homosexual activity, adultery,fornication,murder and any other act of evil,

      David Cameron is determined to destroy these Christian values and ethics. It won’t be too long before the world reverts back to the fearful Gods. I for one, will never vote for Cameron and I hope that any Christian worth their salt will also refuse to vote for him and his Party. Of course the other main Parties, with exception  of UKIP and the Christian Party are also determined to destroy important Christian values under the guise of a fallacious understanding of equality and liberty.

    I notice that you are quick to fire from the hip to judge and condemn the very thing that gave us true freedom in the world, that is the Catholic faith, or will you deny that this ancient institution formed our modern world and Europe? I do not expect you to agree with anything I have written and and to be honest I will pray for you and your immortal soul..

  • Gildaswiseman

    He is in need of our prayers, poor chap

  • Gavin Wheeler

    From the Conservative Party Manifesto document “A Contract for Equalities”:
    http://www.conservatives.com/News/News_stories/2010/05/~/media/Files/Downloadable%20Files/Manifesto/Equalities-Manifesto.ashx

    “We will also consider the case for changing the law to allow civil partnerships to be called and classified as marriage.”

    How does that count as making “no mention of ‘gay marriage’”?

  • Ferristown

    Top notch bigotry from the cardinal here.
    “…without regard either to its procreative function…”Irrelevant. or do you also condemn married couples incapable of having children?

    “…the complementarity of the relationship between man and woman…”
    Which is… what, exactly? That they are in love? As much as it offends your ridiculous ideology, homosexual couples are capable of exactly the same kind of love as anyone else. Or is it more in the sense of the mechanics of their biology “fitting”? Because in that case I’ve got news for you.
    Oh, and by the way, the abolition of discrimination and the advancement of decency toward fellow human beings is exactly what I would called “strengthening of marriage”.

  • Kevin

    “it has never been accepted that the State can dictate to individuals and society itself what marriage should mean to us”

    Well put.

    “Us”, of course, excludes those members of the public who like to play the dictator.

    They can get lost too.

  • WavyGravy123

    Eat your jesus cracker and calm down you crazy wizard!

  • mollysdad

    Can Mr Cameron be trusted? Put it this way: I’m surprised that his wife didn’t insist in his wearing an electronic tag as she put the wedding ring on his finger.

  • Mtturner

    I don’t really want to be attacking David Cameron on all sides at this time. I would rather focus on the issues which are showing him to be a rather ‘ Callow public school boy  He certainly seems very limited when it comes to understanding public opinion. We must eliminate this nonsense of gay marriage, which is focussing the minds of too many people just now, for too little reason. We must not aquiess by accepting such a wide ranging issue stuffed down our throats without even reasonable discussion.
    If the government are so desperate to bring in gay marriage, then at least tell us why ? LOGIC
    RATIONALE, BENEFITS,  ARGUMENT AGAINST OPPOSITION,
    One wonders what the real argument is, certainly not demand, other than from a vociferous few gay folk. 

  • Parasum

    “the cardinal pointed out that same-sex marriage was not an election commitment, unlike the Conservatives’ promise to introduce tax incentives for married couples, which has so far been dropped.”

    ## Any one who thinks politicians are going to do all and only what is their manifestos is hopelessly naive. Life is not that simple – undertakings are de-railed; events call for new undertakings that were not made on paper. This is not new. This is no excuse for a man his age not to know this. 

    And if he cannot see the difference between the simple not doing of something, and the ruling it out of set purpose, then he badly needs a lesson in reasoning.

  • Parasum

    “I have never heard of choir boys being castrated in order to keep their high voices.” 

    ## I have no idea what that has to do with the thread, but search for “Alessandro Moreschi”. Castration of boys for their voices was practiced so that the notes women could reach would be possible, but without having women in the Sistine Chapel choir. Solution: that practice, from about 1600 to about 1878. Moreschi was one of the last of them. This is where the operatic castrati of the 18th century came from.

  • Parasum

    “Nobody has done anything to get rid of paedophiles as Pope Benedict XVI”

    ## He would not have had to deal with the problem of paedophilia, had it not been allowed to grow in the first place, despite explicit warnings about it to bishops & Popes.
     
    As to his “get[ting] rid” of paedophiles:

    1. That is not how human beings should be treated – rubbish is “g[o]t rid” of, not people; they are human beings, not waste matter;  

    2. He has done no such thing, since they are still in the Church. Those who commit doctrinal aberrations are shown no such mercy. In the Church, offences against the person, however numerous & grave, are punished far more mildly than doctrinal ones. This puts the efforts of the Pope in much less flattering light. It is typical of the Pope’s groupies that they praise the him to the skies, while not a word is said about those who blew the top off these horrible events, despite the opposition of many bishops & their minions & the denials of the Vatican. To give the Pope most of the credit is to ignore the many who have done far more, despite opposition from the  churchmen. The Pope is taking credit due to others. When bishops are in gaol alongside the priests they have shuffled around, it may be possible to believe the Pope is seriously opposed to these abominations: but not until then.

  • Parasum

    “They actually presume they speak on our behalf, with or without mandate, they must learn quickly that is not the case.”

    ## The bishops ? Couldn’t agree more. That whole comment is spot-on.

  • Scholar

    Politicians will always be politicians. In a coalition they will do things not in the manifesto to gain support and hold onto power. They may be hypocritical. But for a churchman to say that we should not trust them is extreme. How many trust priests and bishops after the paedophile scandal. The Cardinal should put his “own house” in order before criticisng others outside. It always easier to stand inside the tent and to pee towards the outside… Having said that my personal opinion is that same sex marriage is not biblical. I leave it at that. To legalise that is a VERY BIG STEP INDEED. Even if a future government were to repeal the law the damage would be done. If affects everything including inheritance, property rights etc.

  • whytheworldisending

    Bishops have an implied mandate from all Christians derived from shared faith in Jesus Christ, who said “All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me.” As long as they are faithful to Jesus, they do indeed speak on behalf of all christians. Indeed since we are a christian country with a christian monarch, they probably speak for many more people who share the same values – and remember that nobody in this shabby coalition government is speaking for them - or even listening to them.

  • whytheworldisending

    Capable of love? Yes, like all sinners – if they repented, believed the gospels, and ceased abusing one another’s bodies, but then they wouldn’t be practicing homosexuals would they.

  • Ferristown

    Oh look, another religious nutjob proclaiming the evil of the gays. Yawn.
    Your precious dogma is idiotic, and has done more harm to the world than any group for sexual equality ever could. Talk to me when you have an argument based on reason (HINT: reason is incompatible with religious fundamentalism).

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DXBSLIWDHLSL2SLVZYRINOSTGY Mchicha

    Britain has long been a persecutor of all that is Catholic. They are now about to begin havesting their crops by self destruction.

  • W Lewis513

    Let the Cardinal leave personaliteis out of the, Cameron is named, wjy not Milliband and Clegg. for  they have the same mind on this, I not he doesnot chastise a Roman Cathoic M.P. who openly supports this legislation. Sort out your own flock first before condming others. But then his Eminence trys to face two ways, condemnation of poiticinas but has encouraged sodomy, partriculaily at one church in westminster Diocese.! i 

  • anoeyinoe

    Look, everyone is an athiest its just that some do not know it yet.

  • whytheworldisending

    Yes, but that’s the whole point about Cameron and his public school chums. They have a lot in common with your vociferous gays. Andrew Mitchell’s Plebgate behaviour is a case study in how these types operate. Why DID he demand that the main gates open for him even though the main gate is for cars and the side gate is more than adequate in size to allow him and his little bike to pass through? One can only wonder at his motive since the main gate is closed for the protection of Downing Street and opening it poses an increased security risk, distracts the policemen on duty and puts them to unecessary trouble. Was he afraid that his head wouldn’t fit through the narrow gate? Assuming it was not a deliberate attempt to wind up the police, it seems that Mr Mitchell’s ego is so sensitive that he thought taking the same route as any normal person was incompatible with his exalted status as a cabinet minister. That demonstrates arrogance, poor judgement and contempt for the public, and, on its own, casts serious doubt on his suitability for public office. The repeated use of the F word towards the unfortunate men who were just doing their job, serving the public, reinforces this, but it also shows that such arrogance is usually accompanied by an inability to tolerate frustration – a foot-stamping petulance when one doesn’t get what one wants. The narrow gate represents marriage between men and women. The wide gate represents promiscuity. The gate-keepers are people of faith – the Church. Cameron – like Mtichell – does not recognise that the wide gate is closed for a reason. He insists on opening it for himself and his chums, and he doesn’t care about the risks, or about the trouble he puts the majority to. They all have this in common – they think they know better than the ordinary person in the street, and they demand special treatment. They think their precious foibles are more important than the natural sentiments and the common sense judgements of millions of ordinary British people. Mitchell’s actions towards the gate keepers effectively put 2 fingers up to the ordinary decent British public. Gay rights campaigners do the same, and Cameron, when he supports a quirky, self-obsessed minority of self-appointed elites, against the majority, shouts “PLEBS!” loud and clear at the electorate. Public school education – you can’t beat it (Sarcastically)… spoilt brats (under breath).

  • whytheworldisending

    According to atheism, we’re all dead. We just don’t know it.

  • whytheworldisending

    “Nutjob,” and “idiotic,” are terms of abuse. They are not arguments, but signs that you have no argument.

    “More harm…?” Hard to think of anything more harmful homosexual acts, which have led to the deaths of over 34 million people and counting.

  • anoeyinoe

    Cardonal Oconnor probably the worst type of hypocrite you can find. The prime minster cannot be trusted he says. Any little child whose mind is a blank canvass and is forced to be taught their teachings and none other cannot be trusted. Catholic schools enforcing their views on a captive audience who have no redress.Not the regular three Rs taught in catholic schools but Religious Rigtious Ramblings

  • Ferristown

    Actually those are perfectly reasonable terms for someone who thinks homosexuality has caused over 34 million deaths. I would LOVE to see your source for that.

  • whytheworldisending

    The World Health Organisation website, at:

    http://www.who.int/gho/hiv/en/index.html

    Thank you for asking. By the way I wouldn’t split hairs by trying to distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable terms of abuse. Abuse is not not argument.

  • Mtturner

    The Cardinal speaks wisely for the majority here. I am concerned that David Cameron frequently vosiferates articulately, without  displaying the essential wisdom or depth of argument one expects of a leader, it is indeed disturbing.
    Personally I am deeply concerned over the issue of homosexual marriage and the re-defining of marriage to accommodate such a small number. less than 1/5th of 1% of the population ( in civil partnership ).
    I hear statements made by various MPs that the polls are in favour of homosexual marriage, this is certainly not mirrored in the very broad discussions I am involved with.
    The question really must be asked. Why are so many MPs backing this folly. Why is there such urgency,. Why has it not been broadly discussed with public involvement. Why is it being treated so lightly, as if it really doesn’t matter how many millions might be offended by such an action. Where homosexual marriage has been brought in, not nearly as widely as some would suggest, it was also done in a manner quite outside democratic choice, and has been challenged strongly in the courts.
    I cannot see this proposal other than a farcical, ill-conceived imposition on the nation which must be fought against with vigour.
    Of those MPs supporting the move and with whom I have communicated, six have responded with the very weak notion of equality, pray help me, this argument is wholly insufficient to justify  a move of this magnitude. I would suggest that equality in this respect has already been well achieved with civil partnership. It is iniquitous to pursue the matter further.
    There is an urgency in this matter. The Government plan a vote early in the new year. If you are like most and opposed to this proposed legislation then contact the PM directly on Contact no 10. and let him know your views, strongly, We need not worry about Scotland at this time, if Westminster are forced down on this important matter Mr Salmond in his lightweight viewpoint will quickly see the light.

    Michael Turner

  • Mtturner

    Hi Parasum

    Not really fair, and I suspect you know it. Please don’t confuse the issues here, this paricular issue is about the imposition of homosexual marriage on the people, against their will, on the basis that  ” We know best what is good for you ”
    The church does have other issues on the go of course, but thats not whats being addressed here. Sensible people need to crush this bill, now.