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Bishops’ briefing on same-sex marriage Bill: full text

By on Tuesday, 29 January 2013

MPs will debate the Bill at its second reading next Tuesday (Photo: PA)

MPs will debate the Bill at its second reading next Tuesday (Photo: PA)

The Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales Briefing to Members of Parliament on the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Tuesday 29th January 2013

We urge Members to oppose this legislation at Second Reading for the following reasons:

1. THE MEANING OF MARRIAGE MATTERS

This Bill, for the first time in British history, fundamentally seeks to break the existing legal link between the institution of marriage and sexual exclusivity, loyalty, and responsibility for the children of the marriage. If the Bill passes, several previously foundational aspects of the law of marriage will be changed to accommodate same sex
couples: the common law presumption that a child born to a mother during her marriage is also the child of her partner will not apply in same sex marriages (Schedule 4, para. 2); the existing provisions on divorce will be altered so that sexual infidelity by one of the parties in a same sex marriage with another same sex partner will not constitute adultery (Schedule 4, para. 3); and nonconsummation will not be a ground on which a same sex marriage is voidable (Schedule 4, para. 4).

Marriage thus becomes an institution in which openness to children, and with it the responsibility on fathers and mothers to remain together to care for children born into their family unit, is no longer central to society’s understanding of that institution (as reflected in the law). The fundamental problem with the Bill is that changing the legal understanding of marriage to accommodate same sex partnerships threatens subtly, but radically, to alter the meaning of marriage over time for everyone. This is the heart of our argument in principle against same sex marriage.

The existing approach to marriage in British law encourages a particular understanding of marriage and the obligations taken on by those who marry. British law currently provides, for example, that a marriage is between two, rather than several, individuals; that the commitment of husband and wife is meant to last for their lifetime; that there is a sexual aspect to the relationship (in the requirement of consummation for there to be a valid marriage); that the husband is presumed to be the father of the child carried by his wife; and that the partners to the marriage will remain loyal to the relationship to the exclusion of all other sexual partners.

Those elements of the law of marriage are not arbitrary, archaic, or reactionary; they serve to show that marriage has an important and unique function.

These provisions cannot be understood unless they are seen as intimately related to the conception and rearing of children. This view is one held particularly strongly by the Catholic Church, but it is not a uniquely religious view.2 As Bertrand Russell said: ‘But for children, there would be no need of any institution concerned with sex …. It is through children alone that sexual relations become of importance to society, and worthy to be taken cognizance of by a legal institution.’

We recognise that there is an alternative view of what constitutes the ‘good’ of marriage, and we understand that proponents of same sex marriage often adopt this alternative view, in good faith.

Under this alternative view, the ‘good’ of marriage is that it fosters intimacy and care-giving for dependants, builds trust, and encourages openness, and shared responsibilities.3 We accept, of course, that these are, indeed, important aspects of marriage. But we believe that marriage is not only the institutional recognition of love and commitment. Marriage, as legally recognised in this country, is also the institutional recognition of a unique kind of relationship in which children are raised by their birth-parents. Even if this is not always possible in practice, the law, by recognising this core understanding of marriage, sends a vital signal to society of an ideal.

We recognise, of course, that British law does not limit marriage to those who intend to have children; nor does it deny marriage to those who are infertile. We also recognise that many same sex couples raise children in loving and caring homes. Nevertheless, marriage has an identity that at its core is distinct from any other legally recognised relationship, no matter how much love or commitment may be involved in these other relationships. Marriage has,
over the centuries, been the enduring public recognition of this commitment to provide a stable institution for the care and protection of children, and it has rightly been recognised as unique and worthy of legal protection for this reason. Marriage furthers the common good of society because it promotes a unique relationship within which children are conceived, born and reared, an institution that we believe benefits children.

2. RETAINING MARRIAGE SOLELY FOR OPPOSITE SEX COUPLES IS NOT DISCRIMINATORY

We believe, along with those who support same sex marriage, that the law matters both in terms of the
signals that it sends and the effects of those signals on future behaviour. We disagree that the signal that
is sent currently, by restricting marriage to opposite sex couples, is one of disparagement of same sex
relationships.

The basic argument that is advanced in favour of same sex marriage is one of equality and fairness. But we suggest that this intuitively appealing argument is fundamentally flawed. Those who argue for same sex marriage do so on the basis that it is unjust to treat same sex and heterosexual relationships differently in allowing only heterosexual couples access to marriage. Our principal argument against this is that it is not unequal or unfair to treat those in different
circumstances differently. Indeed, to treat them the same would itself be unjust.

The Government, in proposing this change to the law and definition of marriage, has itself not sought complete equivalence between same sex couples and heterosexual couples. We have already shown how significantly the Bill distinguishes between same sex and opposite sex marriages (there is no consummation requirement, there is no common law presumption as to the parenthood of any children, and adultery will not be a ground for divorce). What results in the Bill is a distinct set of differences between opposite sex marriage and same sex marriage. In addition to these differences incorporated in the Bill, civil partnerships will remain an option for same sex couples, but heterosexual couples will not be given access to civil partnerships and the Government has made this decision against the views of the majority in the consultation.

The Government itself recognises, therefore, that it is not necessarily unfair discrimination or a breach of the principle of equality to treat different people differently, if they are different in a relevant way. So too, retaining different institutions in order to serve differing functions is not unfair, but a recognition of relevant differences in the functions served by those institutions.

Catholic teaching, whilst it does not condone same sex sexual activity, condemns unfair discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. We note that same sex couples already effectively enjoy equivalent legal rights as heterosexual couples by virtue of the Civil Partnership Act 2004. A Civil Partnership in essence entitles a same sex couple to equivalent legal benefits, advantages and rights as heterosexual couples6 . Therefore the changes proposed in the Bill
are not needed in order to provide legal recognition to and protection for same sex relationships. Our opposition to same sex marriage is not based in discrimination or prejudice; it is based in a positive effort to ensure that the unique social values currently served by marriage carry on being served by that institution in the future.

3. THERE IS NO MANDATE FOR THIS CHANGE AND THE VIEWS OF MANY HAVE BEEN IGNORED

Fundamentally changing the definition of marriage is a major constitutional change and Parliament should not be rushed into making a decision that will have far reaching long-term consequences, many of them unintended. Once this understanding of marriage is fundamentally weakened, its unique value will be lost. The risk, if this Bill becomes law, is that the true meaning of marriage will gradually, over time, be lost, to the detriment of future generations. This Bill, we repeat, will change the meaning of marriage for everyone.

The British public, as a whole, did not seek this change; none of the mainstream political parties promised it in their last election manifestos; there has been no referendum; there was no Green or White Paper; and when the Government launched its consultation it did not ask whether the law should be changed, but how the law should be changed. There is no clear mandate for this change.

In pressing forward with this Bill the Government has set aside the views of over 625,000 people who signed a petition opposing the change, and effectively ignored the submissions of many others to the Equal Civil Marriage Consultation who also opposed the change. Whilst we accept that there is support for this change among a section of the British public, we believe that such a major constitutional change should not be decided on the basis of simple head counts. In short, we suggest that that there is no public consensus on this issue and that there is not sufficient public demand for so
fundamental a change to the definition of marriage.

It is essential that Parliament proceeds with extreme caution before fundamental alterations are made to an institution that provides the primary tried and trusted context in which children are born and raised. We have made it clear that there are major arguments in principle against this change, but even leaving these to one side, any such changes should await considerably more evidence about child bearing and child rearing in the context of same sex unions.

4. THE BILL PAVES THE WAY FOR YET MORE FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE

By fundamentally altering the definition of marriage, the Government will leave the law on marriage vulnerable to even more radical change in the near future, however much the Government protests that this is not its intention. Over the last two decades, the laws have changed continually, despite assurances at each stage that the law would change no further. In 2004, for example, the Civil Partnerships Act was passed and religious organisations were excluded, but this was later changed (after assurances that it would not be) to allow civil partnership ceremonies to be conducted on religious premises. At the time the Civil Partnerships Act was debated there were also assurances that the definition of marriage would not be affected but, only a few years later, the Bill now before Parliament seeks to alter the fundamental meaning of marriage.

If the law is changed and the existing core understanding of marriage is lost, further changes both in Parliament and through the courts can be expected. Previous experience shows that statutory changes to fundamental institutions pave the way for further changes going well beyond what the drafters of the original measure considered desirable, or even conceivable. Slippery slope arguments are often overused, but in this case the evidence is clear: by making these changes, it is more likely that the law and core understanding of marriage will be altered further in the coming
years.

5. THE PROPOSED ‘SAFEGUARDS’ ARE INADEQUATE

The Government’s safeguards, although well intentioned, will not provide adequate protection for individuals or religious organisations with conscientious objections to same sex marriage.

(a) The Religious Protection Provision Inadequately Protects Individuals:

The Bill is likely to generate further difficulties and barriers for individuals with conscientious objections to same sex marriage both inside and outside the work place.

The government purports, in Clause 2, to protect individuals from being ‘compelled’ to conduct same sex marriages even if their religious organisations have opted-in; but it has failed to protect individuals in other circumstances, where the state is involved. Carefully tailored protections are needed for individuals who have a conscientious objection to same sex marriage in several other contexts.

For example, such individuals should be able reasonably to express views that relate to same sex marriage without fear of criminal prosecution under public order legislation. Freedom of expression is one of the hallmarks of a democratic society and it is central to achieving individual freedoms. It deserves to be protected explicitly.

The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion of employees may also be limited as a result of the Bill. Protection should be accorded to those working in the public and religious sectors. Individuals should be able reasonably to excuse themselves from activities, or be able reasonably to express views, that relate to same sex marriage without fear of being reprimanded or losing their jobs.

(b) The Religious Protection Provision Inadequately Protects Religious Organisations:

The Prime Minister personally, and the Government in general, have also sought to reassure religious organisations that they will not be required under any circumstances to conduct same sex marriages if they object to them. Clause 2
of the Bill seeks to protect religious organisations in two ways: by providing that religious organisations may not be ‘compelled’ to opt-in, and by providing that religious organisations may not be ‘compelled’ to conduct same sex marriages.

Whilst we welcome the recognition that protections are necessary, we do not consider that these provisions adequately address the problem, because it is entirely unclear what the protection from being ‘compelled’ in law means in these circumstances.

As regards Clause 2(1), there remains a significant risk that religious organisations that conduct legally recognised opposite sex marriages (in the civil and religious sense) will be regarded as ‘public bodies’ for the purposes of the Human Rights Act 1998 and judicial review. This could result in legal challenge to a decision not to ‘opt in’, thus limiting the breadth of the discretion of those religious organisations. This is a significant threat and even if such litigation may ultimately be successfully resisted, it would only be after significant costs had been incurred. Religious organisations should not be exposed to such costs, and more explicit protections are therefore
needed.

(c) The Implications of the Public Sector Equality Duty Have Not Been Addressed:

A similar problem arises under section 149 of the Equality Act 2010. Most public authorities, such as local authorities, are under a duty to have ‘due regard’ to the need to ‘advance equality of opportunity between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it.’ In particular, public authorities must have ‘due regard’ to the need to ‘remove or minimize disadvantages suffered by persons who share a relevant protected
characteristic that are connected to that characteristic’.

The Bill does nothing to prevent public authorities from taking into account a decision by a religious organisation not to opt-in to same sex marriage. The Bill does nothing to prevent religious organisations which do not opt-in to same sex marriage from being treated less favourably by public authorities, for example by refusing to award public contracts or grants to religious organisations. It is not at all clear that Clause 2(1) protects religious organisations from such less favourable treatment.

(d) Interference with the autonomy of other Churches establishes a dangerous precedent:

We have made it clear that the Catholic Church will not be conducting same sex marriages. But our concerns extend beyond the effect of the Bill on the Catholic Church. We are concerned also about the significant inroads that the Bill makes on the internal affairs of other religious organisations, in two respects.

First, Clause 2(3) makes it unlawful for the Church of England to conduct same sex marriages. Whether or not religious organisations wish to provide same sex marriage ceremonies is a decision that must be made by the religious organisations alone. The Bill establishes a dangerous precedent for government interference with other religious organisations. Second, there is a further problem of principle.

Clause 2(2) seeks to allow individuals, connected to a religious organisation which has opted-in to same sex marriages, to refuse to conduct or be present at a same sex marriage ceremony. This will undoubtedly generate conflict and the religious freedom of individuals will (under the Bill) be accorded greater weight than the institutional autonomy of religious organisations. The major effect of this safeguard will be to undermine the traditional institutional autonomy of religious organisations, providing scope for further dispute and division between religious organisations and their members. Were this protection to be accorded to individuals outside the religious sector as well, this interference would be justified. The fact that this is directed only at religious organisations is disturbing.

(e) Sharing Religious Buildings – Creating Future Friction Between Religious Organisations:

Clauses 44 A-D of Schedule 1 will generate friction between religious organisations and damage interfaith relations. This provision is likely to lead to division between religious organisations that share buildings but have opposing views on same sex marriage. It will result in disputes over whether or not one religious organisation has the right to veto the use of shared religious buildings, and it will hinder inter-faith relations by engendering a reluctance to share buildings and resources in the future.

(f) Recourse to the ECHR renders the ‘safeguards’ questionable in any event:

Parliament may seek to provide protections for religious individuals or religious organisations under domestic law but it cannot ensure that these protections themselves will withstand complaints against them to the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR).

There is a risk that the ECtHR will find that the protections provided by the Bill are incompatible with the Convention under Article 89 alone, or Articles 8 and 1210, read with Article 14,11 on the ground that the Bill adopts a discriminatory regime by enabling some religious organisations to refuse to perform same sex marriage ceremonies.

A key reason for this increased risk is that Britain, by changing the law on ‘marriage’ as such would open up the prospect that a discrimination claim could succeed because the claimed discrimination would then come ‘within the ambit’ of Article 12. It is clear that a challenge directly under Article 12 would be unlikely to succeed (because the ECtHR has held there is no right to same sex marriage under Article 12) but a claim under Article 14 read with Article 12 is a different matter.

The Government has argued that the chance of a successful challenge to the protections in the ECtHR is low on the basis that Article 9 (protecting freedom of religion) would protect the safeguards. But the recent judgment by a Chamber of the ECtHR in the case of Eweida and Others v The United Kingdom [2013] (Application nos. 48420/10, 59842/10, 51671/10 and 36516/10)12 illustrates that the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion (Article 9) does not
provide adequate protection when there is a clash between it and other competing rights and interests. The Government cannot therefore guarantee that the ECtHR would accept the safeguards put in place to protect the position of individuals and organisations that have a conscientious objection to same sex marriage, should a challenge be brought.

There is no precedent from the ECtHR on the acceptability under the Convention of balancing religious protections with sexual orientation in the context of a same sex marriage law that has been introduced by a Member State.13 Previous case law has involved the question whether Member States should introduce same sex marriage, not on how it legislates for same sex marriage. What we know from case law, however, is that the Court often accords Article 9 rights relatively little weight, and accords a Member State a considerable margin of appreciation in deciding how to protect that right.
Much greater weight is given to equality on the basis of sexual orientation, meaning the margin of appreciation is correspondingly reduced. Differences in treatment based on sexual orientation can be justified only with very considerable difficulty, as indicated by the case law of the ECtHR.

It is also likely that challenges will be made under the Human Rights Act in domestic courts, where, of course, the margin of appreciation does not apply. The proposed ‘safeguards’ may turn out not to be safeguards at all.

6. THE WIDER CONSEQUENCES OF THE BILL HAVE NOT BEEN ADEQUATELY ADDRESSED

The consequences of the Bill will be wide-ranging. The Government has not identified all these consequences and they certainly have not all been addressed. Three of the wider potential repercussions are explored below, but there are and will be many others.

(a) Unknown Implications For Public And Private Law:

Clause 11(1) is extremely broad and its implications cannot possibly be known in advance. It states: ‘In the law of England and Wales, marriage has the same effect in relation to same sex couples as it has in relation to opposite sex couples.’ The intention is to ensure, as the default position, that same sex marriage is for all legal effects the same as opposite sex marriage. To incorporate such a broad provision is a dangerous substitute for the detailed (and extensive) inquiry that is necessary. Inadequate thought has been given to the repercussions of such a significant change, no doubt because of the rushed way in which the legislation was prepared. This provision is likely to lead to costly litigation, the need for continuing ad hoc parliamentary engagement, or both.

Given the constitutional importance of this proposed change of law, such a clause (with extensive and unknown consequences that may detrimentally affect a number of people and institutions) is unacceptable.

(b) Education – Freedom of Expression and Freedom of Religion:

A change in the definition of marriage will have an adverse impact on schools because the Secretary of State is under a statutory duty to issue guidance on ‘the nature of marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children’ under s.403 of the Education Act 1996. A statutory change may therefore result in religious schools being compelled to teach a definition of marriage contrary to their own understanding and thus impact on previously accepted and protected religious freedoms.

There is also a danger that teachers will be limited in their freedom of expression both inside and outside school as far as same sex marriage is concerned. It is imperative that freedom of expression and the freedom of thought, conscience and religion, are protected in the school curriculum, when individuals are teaching, or where teachers publicly express dissenting views in other contexts. The Bill fails to do this.

(c) An emerging gulf between religious and secular conceptions of marriage:

In marriage, legal and religious institutions are thoroughly intertwined. It is one of the central examples in Britain where there is, at present, no clear separation of church and state. This is true not just with regard to the special role of the Church of England, but more generally. Britain, unlike most continental European countries, provides that ‘religious’ marriages are also valid ‘civil’ marriages.

The effect of the Bill, if it is passed, will be to make a more complete separation of church and state in the area of marriage almost inevitable. ‘Civil’ marriages will be performed by state officials only and the state will determine the legal benefits, rights and duties that accompany marriage, but these will not be regarded as marriages in the eyes of many Churches. ‘Religious marriages’ will be performed by religious institutions according to their own doctrine and rites, and will have no effect on legal relations. Over time, civil and religious marriages will become fundamentally
distinct institutions.

Some will welcome that development; some will not. But either way it is important that Members of Parliament are fully aware of the longer-term effects of the Bill in this respect. The choices that Parliament is being called to make will have profound implications for the future architecture of relations between church and state in Britain.

  • Nick

    And now many times have I said that no one wants to trump your rights.

    You comment re secular marriage is interesting – given that in France and most other countries of Europe, secular marriage is the ONLY marriage available, as religious marriage isn’t recognised as legal.Does that mean all French marriages aren’t worth the paper they’re written on?

  • Nick

    Some rather unChristian language there.

  • Nick

    Some rather unChristian language there.

  • Nick

    A dissenter? He may be one voice, but 40% of Catholic priests being Gay is hardly dissenting.

  • Nick

    Why should I believe you rather than him JabbaJabba? You’re just trying to diss him as he’s revealed 40% of Catholic priests are gay. Something most of us suspected anyway.

  • Nick

    Intersting you think what he says is destructive.

  • Nick

    It seems that just about everyones views are liberal compared to yours.

  • Nick

    “If they are having no sex, then they are close friends not homosexuals.” – What? Don’t talk rubbish….. Even the bible distinguishes between thought and action.

    That’s like saying if two straight people aren’t having sex (boyfriend and girlfriend for example) then they’re not heterosexual.

    Why do you define everything by whether someone is having sex or not.

    So you think all Catholics follow your line on what they should and shouldn’t be doing sexually do you? For I can assure you that they do not. There are many Catholics who also support equal marriage.

  • Jonathan

    Isaac, did you type that with a straight face?  Or are you teasing me?

    The bishops are “free thinkers”…

    Yep.  Every single one of them.  Thinking freely.  In perfect concert.

  • Nick

    I do not have any political allies…
    Nothing is being imposed on you…
    Many religious minorities welcome equal marriage…
    Your opinions and needs are still being met…

  • Nick

    I have no option but to be homosexual – its how I am.

    You on the other hand don’t have to be Catholic.Pity you see it as a fight JabbaJabba – you’re fighting against equality. Equal rights for Gay people.And how many times do you need telling – secular ideologies are not being imposed into the religious sphere. You can do what you like in your churches. But you need to understand that the “religious sphere” IS NOT wider society.

  • Nick

    Nice try JabbaJabba. – But on Tuesday we’ll be one step closer to saying “In civilised society and particularly western civilised society, marriage is defined as being between two people who love each other regardless of gender”

    Later this year Jabba, whose sentence do you think will reflect legal reality – yours or mine?
    And please remember – marriage is licenced by the state – not by the church. I’ve got you by the short and curlies.

  • Nick

    The fact that it might treat the two types of couples differently is for practical reasons and comes back to your obsession with sex.

    And adultery is rather archaic in the 21st century – unreasonable behaviour should be sufficient.

  • scary goat

     Ok.  Up the thread a bit you asked if I support polygamous marriage.  I can give you the answer to that and explain why….but not now.  The point is I was asking you what your views are. So far your answer at first was no. Because there is no calling for it and because relationships should be between a couple.  After it was pointed out that polygamy is accepted in other cultures and what about the minority rights of muslims and that it will be called for in the forseeable future you are now saying, well not now, but maybe later.  So am I correct in understanding that yes, you would be open to accepting polygamous marriages being legalised? You don’t seem to be very clear in your answer. You see, we have a bit of a clash here between “in our civilised western society” and “minority rights”. Maybe you might like to think it through a bit further and give a clearer answer as to whether legalising polygamy is acceptable or not. 

    The question of “in our society” is not at all clear. We have gone, in a comparatively short space of time from being a society based on Christian principles to a relativistic, pluralistic, secular society.  Logically, you can’t have it both ways. It just doesn’t add up.

    “Estranged siblings” is not at all silly, I’m afraid.  Free-sex, multiple partners, one night stands, fatherless children, serial monogamists, cohabitation.  There are a lot of children out there with half-siblings they don’t even know about.  Also adoption of full-siblings at a young age, separated to different families.  I mentioned estranged siblings from a compassionate point of view.  They don’t even know…..or maybe not until it’s too late. Meet, fall in love….then oops.  Ok, so lets even be more blatant.  Never mind estranged.  Why can’t siblings marry?  straight question. 

    I’ll assume for the moment that you aren’t deliberately evading my questions….possibly seeing where I am going with this.

  • Jonathan

    No… I know.

  • Nick

    Yes scary goat – I accept that your concerns are legitimate.

    I do not believe your religious freedoms will be infringed – because we have and will be retaining religious freedom. But I am not the person you need to speak to about guarantees.

  • Nick

    Stop trying to stick up for him / her scary goat.

    “Sweet is definitely correct that your existence is down to the union of a man and a woman” – And you can stop wheedling as well – NOWHERE does the post say my existence is down to the union of a man and a woman.The whole post was inaccurate makebelieve from start to finish and you’re trying to salvage what you can out of it – unsuccessfully.

  • Nick

    It will get through – including through the Lords.
    If it doesn’t, they’ll use the Parliament Act as Tony Blair threatened to with Civil Partnerships.
    In any case, its unlikely that the Lords would through out something that that will pass through the Commons with a thumping majority.

  • scary goat

     Nick, he’s not a real priest.  It is destructive because he is not honest. Better an honest discussion between 2 opposing opinions than someone playing games.

  • scary goat

     If you re-check the comments above you can see that the 3 characters were the same.  Once he was spotted by Jabba he just had a laugh and confirmed it.  And Jabba is a regular here, as are a lot of us….he’s obviously come across him before and recognised his style.

  • scary goat

     Couldn’t you have found a better expression?

  • scary goat

     I meant secular marriage doesn’t mean the same thing as a sacramental marriage.  In France people who want religious marriages do so in church then register it to be legal. 

  • scary goat

     I’m just an orthodox Catholic, that’s all.

  • Nick

    scary, why do some articles close for comments after only a short while, yet others that have been around for months don’t – any idea why they do that?

  • scary goat

     Ok, fair point about the no sex.  I’m just trying to clear up some confusion about what is and isn’t homosexual. You keep talking about emotional love,  and it may or may not be sexual. To my understanding emotional love isn’t necessarily, in fact frequently, isn’t sexual at all.  So where do you draw the line between what is and isn’t homosexual? sexual desire? whether you actually follow through with it or not? It’s really very confusing.

    Regarding more liberal Catholics, that’s up to them.  I didn’t say they don’t.  I just said it’s a sin if they do.  Homosexuals don’t have the option for “normal” sex so it follows that if they are sexually active it is a sinful form of sex. (in our view). 

    This is why the whole subject of gay marriage is so confusing, because traditionally married love was understood as sexual love as differentiated from any other sort of love.  So why do gay people want marriage?  To legalise their sexual love? Or not?  You mentioned in a different post that marriage will now be defined as between 2 people who love each other. Ok….but what sort of love? Even this equal marriage bill apparently doesn’t understand this point, because they are having trouble constituting what is consummation, adultery etc.  So I’m not the only one who is confused. 

    It might not matter to you, because to you it seems that love is some sort of emotional attachment, but to us love, friendship, sex, the meaning of marriage is much more clearly defined. We have a very specific definition of marriage.  This is the problem….what you want to define as marriage is different from what we define marriage as.  It’s like we are talking at cross-purposes.  You want equality….but what you are seeking is not the same.  It’s using one word to have 2 different meanings.  I’m sorry….I’m not trying to be nasty…..I really don’t understand. 

  • scary goat

     Thankyou Jonathan.  That’s all I’m looking for.  We really need to calm down and stop “taking positions” and discuss honestly….listening as well as talking at each other and take the time to make sure the legal solutions work for everybody.  I accept that not everyone shares the views of the Catholic Church….faith can only ever be a choice…it cannot be forced….but this is a legal minefield.

  • scary goat

     Thank you, Nick. 

  • scary goat

     Possibly because this doesn’t come under equality and discrimination laws. The Church does not allow divorce and remarriage. Secular society does.  We understand our own rules.  Secular society understands its rules.  But there is no “divorcophobia”. They are 2 different sets of rules running side by side and they don’t interfere with each other. 

    Also possibly because divorce is clearly defined.  Everyone knows what divorce means.  It’s a simple question of it being allowed or not.  The marriage question is different, a word is being re-defined to mean something different from how we understand it (or how it was traditionally understood) which raises all sorts of complications.  I have raised this question in a post above before I saw this.  On this thread you will have seen a lot of arguing about marriage equality for gay people and assertions that you cannot make something not equal equal.  The gay people take offense at this because they think we are insulting them but I don’t think that’s what the Catholics here mean. What we mean is that according to what we understand the word marriage to mean, it is not equal to apply it to a different set of criteria. In my other post above you will see that I have complained….I REALLY don’t understand. 

    Hope that helps.

  • scary goat

     Usually if its turning nasty or offensive.  We get some pretty heated debates in here but usually it is all in good spirit.  Sometimes it starts going OTT and the editors close it down before someone gets hurt. (not physically obviously)

  • scary goat

     “. You would not be here if both of parents are men.”  I think that pretty much covers it, doesn’t it?  And I did say she bodged the rest of it.  Come on….be fair.

  • Sweetjae

    Positive and Negative produces the very  life (electromanetic current) to run all machines and human physiology whereas negative and negative or same magnetic pole reject each other.

  • JabbaPapa

    If you re-check the comments above you can see that the 3 characters were the same.

    erm, actually no — it’s (sadly) a LOT more complicated than that.

    It’s not my place to explain Frere_R’s dealings with that troll — but the simple fact that he decided to use the “Father R” identity is not a random coincidence, it’s part of an ongoing online campaign of hatred.

    This is a troll who has been engaging in online anti-Catholic warfare for several years now.

    His usual tactic is to create fake “priest” identities (of various denominations, he doesn’t limit himself to fake “catholic” ones), who are invariably heretics and schismatics, and then use them to ally himself with atheists, other trolls, and anti-Catholics of all stripes in order to attack Catholicism, the Vatican, the Pope, any Catholics unfortunate enough to find themselves entangled in his web,

    When I said this is the worst internet troll I have ever encountered, not only was I perfectly serious — but this is in comparison to some pretty stiff competition.

  • Sweetjae

    You are an egg and a sperm once or you think they came from Mars?

  • JabbaPapa

    No matter how much I dislike your own positions and repetitively tedious interventions in here, I would never forge false accusations against you personally — nor anyone else for that matter.

  • JabbaPapa

    I have no option but to be homosexual

    You didn’t answer the question.

    Not surprising — as any honest answer would be liable to reveal your double standards.

    secular ideologies are not being imposed into the religious sphere

    This is a blatantly false statement.

  • Sweetjae

    Other branches of christianity? Yes I remember once of the so called anglican church, episcopalian church, united congregation churches…..THEY ARE DYING! However the Catholic Church is 1.3 Billion worldwide and still growing for ll the  good people of God to have a shelter from these corrupt and evil disorientation engulfing the world.

  • JabbaPapa

    Marriage isn’t being overthrown – its being strengthened

    Right — and black is white, left is right, and up is down.

    Didn’t we get rid of Tony Blair ???

  • Sweetjae

    “No one wants to trump your rights”

    Yes, like in Canada and other liberal western countries they put a threat of litigation, fines and jail to any  christian who teach against gay-marriage and lifestyle.
    Next its the rights of pedophilia, bestiality and others.

  • JabbaPapa

    Other branches of the Christian faith will fare far better

    Sure — that must be why the latest UK and US census  reports both show that people are leaving Protestantatism in their droves, while the numbers and % of Catholics are either stable (US) or growing (UK).

    That must explain why there are greater numbers of practicing Catholics in England & Wales than practicing Anglicans.

  • JabbaPapa

    How do they do that then ?

    Does the stork bring them babies, or do they find them inside giant cabbages ?

  • Sweetjae

    Yes, like in Canada and other liberal western countries they put a threat of litigation, fines and jail to any  christian who teach against gay-marriage and lifestyle.
    Next its the rights of pedophilia, bestiality and others.

  • Sweetjae

    It’s not homophobic when you just have the RIGHT understanding, definition  and purpose of marriage….as a husband and wife, father and mother, socket and plug, positive and negative etc. as Mother Nature intended them to be.

    Your position is against all of these.

  • Sweetjae

    That is the reason why his name is calamity.

  • JabbaPapa

    Oh — please !!!

    I can’t help it if your notion of the meaning of “sin” is derived from Martin Luther, Calvinism, Sottish Presbytarianism, American Puritanism, and bad Hollywood films financed by Jewish Producers and directed by Protestants.

    I’ve nothing against any of these people (well, except Luther I suppose), but they have collectively introduced a highly romanticised and overly dramatic conception of “sin” into the popular culture that has NOTHING to do with Catholic teachings.

  • Sweetjae

    So? 

    Ancient Empires of Greece, Rome, Persians to Barbarians, Mongols, Nazi Germany, U.S.S.R. all crumbled down BUT NOT the Catholic Church…the Oldest Living Institution the world has ever known and still growing!

  • Sweetjae

    Yes, like in Canada and other liberal western countries they put a threat of litigation, fines and jail to any  christian who teach against gay-marriage and lifestyle.
    Next its the rights of pedophilia, bestiality and others.

  • JabbaPapa

    I see — so by the same token,commercial alliances between sausage manufacturers would not concern sausage manufacturing ?

    Actually yes, as it would have nothing to do with making sausages! It
    concerns commercial issues, such as agreements on marketing.

    I can’t help it if you fail to even SEE the basic and underlying flaw in your logic — not even *after* it is pointed out to you by analogy.

    Your interpretative methodology seems to be fundamentally flawed.

    Read the context, which referred to some ancient marriages. Not all. Not recent.

    There is a great difference between a so-called “primary motivation” and “some ancient marriages”.

    Next time, do us the courtesy of admitting it when you’re wrong.

    The primary motivation of marriage has ALWAYS been the creation of a
    family, for various different purposes — but centred necessarily around
    the raising of children.

    That is simply untrue, although you really need to study the subject objectively and with an
    open mind to understand why.

    I have specifically looked into the question of the nature of marriage in
    Antiquity, and Mediaeval and Renaissance Europe at University, for the purpose of a
    paper I wrote there.
    You are confusing marriage contracts with marriages.

    The reasons why people got married varied greatly and it was not always for the raising of children.
    Simply repeating my own points in a different way does not constitute disagreeing with them — that the primary motivation of marriage is creating a family, and that this necessarily revolves around children (no children = no family) does not require that no secondary motivations can exist.

    Marriage is nevertheless defined, and it ALWAYS has been, by that primary motivation and NOT by any antecedent ones.

    A marriage contract can obviously focus on these secondary concerns rather than upon the basic nature of marriage itself — that everyone would simply have been assumed to already have been aware of. Such contracts do not define the nature of those marriages — they simply qualify them contractually.

    Similarly, commercial contracts between sausage manufacturers will concern the sausages that are manufactured and what is to be done with them.

    Personal opinions

    Catholic doctrine, and Canon Law. NOT “personal opinions”.

    to base a policy upon religious belief is, of itself, sinful

    This is a ludicrous proposal, and it appears to be based on a complete misunderstanding of the nature of sin.

    It would seem that I have a much better grasp than you have so far displayed.

    Next time, just write “no, I don’t”

    It’s quicker to type.

  • JabbaPapa

    In France people who want religious marriages do so in church then register it to be legal.

    Other way round, actually — but this is a central point.

    France has instituted the Separation of Church and State ; the UK has not.

    Laws changing the legal definition of marriage in the UK must necessarily infringe upon the religions.

  • JabbaPapa

     At least, it’s not *necessarily* homophobic to disagree with equal marriage

    Thank you.

  • JabbaPapa

    Even the bible distinguishes between thought and action

    Correct, but homosexual acts are described as sinful, not homosexuals, nor homosexual urges per se.

    Scary is right that Catholic doctrines define homosexuality as an actively sexual relationship — homosexual urges do not constitute homosexuality as such in the Catholic sexual teachings.

    Why do you define everything by whether someone is having sex or not

    scary was just a little confused on this (difficult) question.

    Anyway, before you pull out your usual one-liner — this is in response to YOUR question about sex.