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Do not dismiss concerns about liturgical reform, says French bishop

By on Wednesday, 26 June 2013

Bishop Dominique Rey of the Diocese of Fréjus-Toulon

Bishop Dominique Rey of the Diocese of Fréjus-Toulon

The Bishop of Fréjus-Toulon, France, has said that concerns about reform of the liturgy should not be dismissed.

During his opening speech at the conference Sacra Liturgia 2013, which is taking place in Rome this week, Bishop Dominique Ray said that the reform of the liturgy after the Second Vatican Council “must not be dismissed as a marginal concern.”

Bishop Ray said that although the Council “gave us much value,” it “also caused controversy, both in its official reforms, in its translation into the vernacular languages, and in its varied local implementations.”

“Above all, we need to promote authentic liturgical renewal in all its Catholic richness and diversity. We need to promote the Sacred Liturgy celebrated as the Church gives it to us, as the Fathers and Popes of the Second Vatican Council desired.”

Sacra Liturgia 2013 fell within the Year of Faith to commemorate 50 years since the start of the Second Vatican Council and serves as an international conference to study, promote and renew the appreciation of liturgical formation and celebration.

  • Benedict Carter

    You write to them Peter. Shut down free speech – the first resort of the liberal fascist.

  • NatOns

    I know not the sins of another’s soul, nor do I need to know them; but I understand the spirit of disobedience and discontinuity when I see it – not least in failing to pursue the intention of Pius V in Quo Primum: “.. they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers”. Those who were commissioned to set out a New Order of the Mass – Msgr Bugnini and his Protestant colleagues – were tasked to form an order of the Mass that would better reflect the older sources (sic), contain much wider usages, and be easier for Protestants/ the world to appreciate. The woeful shortfall – indeed the sin i.e. the wrong done – in these preparations was set out ably at the time by Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci, they referred (most properly) not to the bona fides of the the Concilium but to the deleterious effects that its constructed liturgy would have on the witness of the Faith (no doubt as influenced by the consultants’ own specialist perspectives); whether or not the Cardinals’ intervention was overly emotional and dystopic, the Holy Father, Servant of God, Pope Paul VI made his intention clear in promulgating the Novus Ordo Missae it was to be a witness to the one Faith as it was with Saint Pius V – although many of Paul’s fellow servants of God had decided to go their own merry way .. and had, by and large, eagerly done so already.

    “After what we have presented concerning the new Roman Missal, we wish in conclusion to insist on one point in particular and to make it have its effect. When he promulgated the editio princeps of the Roman Missal, our predecessor Saint Pius V offered it to the people of Christ as the instrument of liturgical unity and the expression of a pure and reverent worship in the Church. Even though, in virtue of the decree of the Second Vatican Council, we have accepted into the new Roman Missal lawful variations and adaptations,[Sacrosanctam Concilum 38-40] our own expectation in no way differs from that of our predecessor.” Paul VI, Missale Romanum.

    As can be seen about us – without scouring the inter-web for witness – the intention of “pure and reverent worship”, as universally witnessed in Quo Primum, is so far removed from the ordinary mindset of priests and their people as to be unrecognised by them in their use/ abuse of Missale Romanum.

  • Mark

    What the heck are you talking about??? I’m a TLM myself but sometimes my family goes to Byzantine and Pauline rites.

    We are Vatican II revolutionaries? Geesh, i think you lost it, sir. So what should a good catholic believe then, your interpretation of Sacred Tradition?

    I’m not mocking, scorning you nor hated you for wanting to remain catholic. If you take a look closer, you are the one making pejorative remarks to the Ordinary Form, Popes and a valid Council.

    You said, “The New Mass is not catholic”, very authoritative and infallible, well that sums up of what you really are, from what I read before, you and your family were converts from Anglicanism, right? Do you realized that you just moved from a form of protestantism to another protestantism?

  • Benedict Carter

    No, my family were not Anglican converts. So do some more research and come back.

  • Allan

    As I was growing up I can remember some beautiful (and theological correct) English Hymns, possible translated from Latin which very rarely if ever are sung today… e.g. O Bread of Heaven – which I remember being sung at my first Holy Communion – and today still find very moving.

    My belief is that we are in the midst of the Great Apsotasy.

    Archbishop Fulton Sheen I think once said (I’ll have to paraphrase slightly as I not sure if I have it word for word) ‘The great crisis of faith today is the crisis of faith in the True Presence’.
    If you think of that statement – then all of the problems we experience today make sense:
    moving or removal of Tabernacles, standing for Communion, Communion in the hand, woolly music and “hymns”, a multitude of laity distributing Communion, the list goes on.
    Sad to say the lead comes from the top on this (and I’m not including the Pope here).
    … discuss……

  • Mark

    It doesn’t matter, the crux is the same, protestantism still.

  • Benedict Carter

    Are you the same “Mark” as below?

    This follows a pattern, readers. “Peter” posts something attacking me, then another poster quickly appears and seeks to confuse everyone by making comments supporting both sides of the argument. Several regular posters here who are in touch with each other outside this forum have noticed this phenomenon.

    Wonder what “Peter’s” game is?

    EDIT Since making this post, “Mark” has become “Allan” (whose post of course I agree with).

  • Benedict Carter

    Tail between legs Mark, the wind has gone out of your sails.

  • Mark

    Lies? Oh dear.

  • Benedict Carter

    What are you on about? You are saying that Bugnini DIDN’T say that?

  • Mark

    Non sequitur but funny, try again, sir. Time to sleep, zzzz.

  • paulpriest

    29th May 1969 – upon the proposal over 2/3 of Bishops COMMAND that communion must be administered on the tongue, with over half the remainder uncertain – to which the response was ‘well they might think that but – well? – tough – it’s happening!”

  • Julian Lord

    Communion in the hand was already widespread in the 1950s, pp

  • Terik123

    The new traslation in English says that Jesus took the “chalice.” This is disgusting. Remember the movie Indiana Jones and the Last Crusader? The Nazi chose a chalice and died…Jones chose a simple cup. Does the secular world know what the Chuirch does not or is the 16th century lituregy and translation going to reain an idol?

  • Christopher

    Hear Hear,

  • Peter

    I can’t believe that the moderators of this Catholic website have not deleted this sacrilegious insult.

    What will decent non-Catholics and non-Christians think when they see the worldwide celebration of the Holy Eucharist blasphemed against openly and casually with complete impunity?

    If a Catholic website is not prepared to protect our Eucharistic Celebration, the central worship of a billion Catholics, who is? God help us!

  • Jack Clarke

    where??? No catholic had seen this or even heard of it until the changes.

  • Benedict Carter

    What will decent Catholics think, first and foremost. You left them out, as you always do.

    They, wondering at your hatred for the Church as She always was, so evident in everything you post, will tell themselves, “Benedict Carter and others are right”.

    Everybody knows the whole Church is in desperate crisis. You can’t hide it by screeching.

    ” … prepared to protect our Eucharistic Celebration …”.

    Oh, I do agree that it needs protecting. From you people.

  • Benedict Carter

    Yes, where was this Jabba. Evidence please.

  • Benedict Carter

    THIS is the Church that has given us the Novus Ordo!!

  • Benedict Carter

    Yes, Scary it is a savage indictment of the “bastard rite” that is the Novus Ordo.

  • scary goat

    Yeah…like “virgin” olive oil…makes the kids laugh.

  • scary goat

    Fr. TP….it is easy to learn. All you need is a Missal with a translation. After going to my first TLM which came as a bit of a shock…I took the trouble to spend a couple of weeks reading through it at home to familiarise myself with it. Once I knew what to expect I then went to a TLM a few more times without trying to read at the same time..Just watching and trying to recognise where we were and what was what. My Latin is a bit basic…I haven’t learnt all the prayers fully…but it’s enough for the time being to recognise the first lines so that I know where we are…and just watching the priest’s position and movements helps too. I have been about half a dozen times now and I am quite comfortable with it…although I want to learn more…it takes a little time. How if people are brought up with it and taught it? I think you are Indian? How do you understand and speak English so well? You take the trouble to learn, right? And learning the Mass is nowhere near as difficult as learning a whole language.

  • scary goat

    Oh no…not again! I was wondering further up the thread if we had a multiple name user again. (Peter and Mark) It’s so mean….because not only it wastes people’s sincere time and efforts here but it ruins it for bona fide guest posters….because all the regulars here have now become suspicious of “guests”.

    Once again I urge all regular posters to make a Disqus account. It is not only to avoid suspicion, it is also for your own protection, because guest names can be duplicated easily.

    ps (later edit) I confirm those 2 posts in BC and Jabba’s names were made by me)

  • Benedict Carter

    See….easy-peasy…..but no bold name, no pic….so it’s not who it looks like.

  • JabbaPapa

    See…that was me (scary goat)…not BC or Jabba

  • scary goat

    Oh my God………… :-(

    Sex scandals are bad…but hey….
    Stealing consecrated Hosts ??????????????????????

    Ok, I think we can let Pope Francis off for not attending the concert now.

  • scary goat

    I just had a thought….don’t know if it’s right or not….maybe someone is using multiple names….and the moderators notice and morph them so that they get caught by other readers?

  • Simon James Perry

    Unfortunately, Mr Carter is not alone amongst self-styled traditional catholics. I have encountered many over the years who think similarly. They put many people offf the old rite completely, and play directlly into the hands of its opponents. Many traditionalists fall into the error of becoming their own magisterium, and shout people down for disagreeing with them. I know a number of people who like the old mass but abandon it simply because they find traditionalists nasty or wierd. I don’t think Mr Carter is really doing the old mass many favours.

  • scary goat

    SJP….If you have encountered such problems over the years I can make no comment on your experience except to say that my experience has not been at all similar. However, please be careful judging the arguments on this thread as some of the guest posters may not be who they seem. We have had an on-going problem with this sort of thing.

  • Irenaeus of New York

    Will he and good people like Bishop Schneider be heeded…. i can only pray.

  • Julian Lord

    I was looking for evidence, but I came across the following instead, and can look no further, even though it will do NOTHING to answer your question :

  • Andrea

    I’ve just seen this Benedict. Of course everyone will focus on the paedophilia, not the homosexuality.

  • Julian Lord


  • Benedict Carter

    Cardinal Ranjith on the shortcomings of the Novus Ordo (or one of them, anyway):

  • Benedict Carter

    Rorate Caeli have a magnificent article by Roberto de Mattei on exactly this point. Well worth reading. You are right of course.

  • Benedict Carter

    Well, if you have no evidence (there isn’t any, because it never happened), why do you make the claim? You do this all the time Jabba.

  • Julian Lord

    Sadly, I think you’re right — but I don’t think any of this has anything to do with paedophilia as such in the first place — these are not men who have been abusing small children, but men who have been paying for sex with young male prostitutes.

  • Julian Lord

    I don’t really store this sort of thing away for future use, Ben, but AFAIK from information that I’ve seen, communion in the hand was already fairly widespread in the France of the 1950s for example…

    It’s anyway wrong to say that everything you dislike is from Vatican II, here’s a couple of photos of Masses given in 1940 and 1942 :

  • scary goat

    Wow…love the ad :-D

  • scary goat

    Am not phil, Jabba…..those 2 comments were me (only those 2) to make the point to everyone about “guest” posting….although phil or not, someone has been playing silly twerps on this thread again.

  • firstparepidemos


  • Julian Lord

    ah OK gotcha

  • St Donatus

    Thanks for that picture. Even the cross is of the risen Christ taking away the ‘sacrificial’ nature of eucharist. So they had liberal disobedient priests in the 1950s. I heard they had some even in the 15th century, he was called Martin Luther.

  • Midwester

    You need to do your homework. It is not gossip to be concerned with the fruits of the NO mass. It is scandalous to ignore the ongoing apostasy in the Church and sit on the sidelines while souls perish in hell for lack of knowledge.